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Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

25K views 195 replies 26 participants last post by  Mervs1 
#1 ·
Well I took the plunge today. My offer on a 1966 HH 28 was accepted and I am a new owner. I am excited to get going fitting her out to go back in the water. The only potentially serious problem to be addressed is a frozen rudder. Using the wheel above and putting pressure on rudder below because she is on the hard, the rudder refuses to move at all. Even after dousing the shaft from above with WD40 overnight. Any ideas on how to approach a repair? The boat has been stored for a number of years so no doubt something has seized up over time. The seller says he had previously exercised the rudder regularly. He appeared as surprised as I that my third visit to see the boat revealed the frozen rudder. See pic but I am looking for ways to approach a fix. The rudder neither turns nor can it be dropped. Thanks.
 

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#141 ·
OK... I was envisioning adding a short sleeve after the fact just for the seal.... bushing up the whole shaft means bigger bushings top and bottom... tough to do if he wants to save the old tube....
 
#142 ·
It was a replay to this post
The attached pic taken from their PDF looks just like my setup. My only question is rudder shaft OD. I am 1 7/8" and their closest listed size is 1 3/4". We shall see what they say.
Don't think it is possible to squeeze a 1 7/8" shaft into a 1 3/4 bearing.
If he will use these bearings reducing the shaft by 1/8" is not easy (or smart)
Sleeving one size up seems a better option - would also give smooth surface.
If the purpose of the sleeving only is to smooth en the surface - the sleeve can be made thin (wall thickness of 3mm)

I have not seen the whole shaft, often he upper part has smaller OD than the lover part.

Only need sleeving the part where the bearings go.

Epoxying a new tube have already been discussed.
 
#143 ·
Congrats, you're on the right track and near solution! Be sure the paste you showed in your hand wasn't white lead. That used to be an industrial lubricant/gasket sealant for marine service. Not so popular any more. As for sealing the rudder. Whether it's above waterline or not leaving it open to atmosphere would seem to invite seawater to come and go more freely while underway due to the motion of sailing.
 
#144 ·
I am back form the cruise which I will say turned out much better than those poor folks being towed in the Gulf. :-( Hope they make it OK. Actually I was with carnival as well and we did have an episode. At one point something happened to the stablizer system and we heeled that monster way over first to starboard then to port. It was in slow motion so you did not know how far it was going to go. But I was on a lounger between two hot tubs and the heel was so extreme that both tubs were emptied and people all over the boat hanging on for dear life. It was truly scary.

Anyway... I am working with the guys at Tide Marine to see if we can figure out how to make one of their RPB Type I seals work. I got on the boat today and was able to take more accurate measurements. I do have approximately 8 ¾” between quadrant and top of rudder tube so I should be fine. I borrowed some calipers and got a 1.92” measurement on the rudder shaft OD. The same calipers gave me a 2.92” OD on rudder tube. I was surprised I did not get a more rounded fraction on the measurement something like 1.75” or 2.0” on shaft and 3.0” on the tube. Was it because I was using a digital caliper? What do you think? Does measurement by caliber produce slightly different results? Anyway I sent the digital results over to the TM guys to see what they think. But if their seal works it will be a fairly easy clean up of shaft and then slide everything together.

Had some other good boat news today as well. It rained here the whole time we were cruising. So the bilge had about 5 inches of water in it. I now have a battery on board but have not tested much of the electronics yet. I was about to use manual bilge pump to remove water but instead hit the switches for the auto bilge bump and the thing threw all that water out in about 20 seconds. This led me to test cabin lights as well as sound system and all worked. Not bad for a 1966 boat that has sat on the hard for 5 years.
 
#145 ·
OK, so your shaft diameter is a Nominal 1-15/16, based on those calipers. Personally, I prefer real micrometers for measuring shafting. Still, not a big deal. the important thing is to get the appropriate dimensions for the bearing surface. Don't forget that there are other standards of measurement, including millimeters...

Drill a hole in the side of the keel sump, as close to the bottom as reasonable, as far aft as reasonable, and install a bronze garboard drain. Leave that open when on the hard. You won't need to pump during the off season. Mine is installed "backwards", so I can insert the plug from inside the bilge... without diving, should we accidentally launch with the plug out.
 
#146 ·
Thanks Paul... for now I shall ponder intentionally drilling a hole in the bottom of my new to me boat. My skills are developing but I am not sure I am ready for that just yet. But the function of such a drain makes perfect sense. We shall see.

In the meantime the search goes on for the right shaft seal. I was looking at the Tides Marine seal but my local boatyard warned me off of Tides and steered me in the direction of these: 02-200-300 | PSS Shaft Seal Looks like an easy install. I plan to shorten the length of my rudder tube by 1/2" using my trusty sawzall :) clean and prep the shaft and then slide it all together compressing the seal accordingly.

I spent a couple hours today figuring out rigging. In storage the mast has simply laid lengthwise on the deck in a sort of jumbled mess. But taking my time I think I can see where everything goes. Worked on nav lights today and just need a bulb for green starboard light and all will be working. I also tested an electronic wind direction/speed indicator that came with the boat. It worked fine too. So it seems the PO stored things well which does not surprise me. I also popped in to local boat yard to discuss launch and mast step process and price. Looks like about $450 for everything including a power wash and atomic 4 test run on the hard with their water. I want to make sure she is running no problem as my slip will be about a mile away from launch and the engine my only power and river current running about 3 knots. Guess I better make sure anchor is working that day as well. :) Thanks for all the help all. I think we are getting close.
 
#149 ·
Thanks Paul... for now I shall ponder intentionally drilling a hole in the bottom of my new to me boat. My skills are developing but I am not sure I am ready for that just yet. But the function of such a drain makes perfect sense. We shall see.

In the meantime the search goes on for the right shaft seal. I was looking at the Tides Marine seal but my local boatyard warned me off of Tides and steered me in the direction of these: 02-200-300 | PSS Shaft Seal Looks like an easy install. I plan to shorten the length of my rudder tube by 1/2" using my trusty sawzall :) clean and prep the shaft and then slide it all together compressing the seal accordingly.
The PSS unit in question has a side tube for cooling water, and is intended for a prop shaft. Different animal.
 
#147 ·
On inspection of the mast I noticed the spreader joints wrapped in some sort of white tape over top of what might be rubber boots. The tape shows wear and cracking and the rubber boots on the center connection appear torn underneath. What are these and should these be replaced before launch? My plan is to launch and do basic centering/rake of mast but to allow 4-5 days before tuning rigging. It is my understanding that having been on the hard for so long it will take the boat a few days to return to natural shape. See photos for details on spreader question.
 

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#151 ·
Peel all that crap off and hope there's only dirt and not corrosion underneath. Those spreader boots should never be taped up at the bottom or they can't drain and crap collects inside. Great balls of rigging tape is a poor idea as well - some sort of attempt to create a baggywrinkle effect I guess.

If the boots are reusable you will see moulded in "troughs" which is where they are supposed to be wrapped with tape to retain them - a couple of turns, not a whole roll of tape on each boot!

P.S. - their purpose is chafe protection.
 
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#148 ·
Spreader boots are de rigeur for many. They only last a few years before the UV splits them. Likewise, a whole roll of 3M tape is not unusual. Personally, I have shroud rollers, so do not need boots or tape. Personal choice. Should not be any boots at the spreader roots, though any pins might well need to be taped. Just rig it and sail it. Have a rigger check the wire, or just replace it. After everything starts to settle in, then you can tune the rig. The cradle may or may not have allowed the hull to relax. All depends. I typically overtighten the rig a little when stepping in the spring, then tune a week later.
 
#152 ·
The saga continues. Well I guess many here have been right in advising me to remove the original rudder tube and start from scratch. A brother in the marina business called today and advised I take the original tube out. His reasoning was that after hammering, heating, and otherwise abusing the rudder tube that it was not longer well bedded and would likely leak even after installing a new seal. So I went at the rudder tube today and it actually came out quite easily, a clear indicator that it would have leaked if left in.

So I am now at a point where the whole rudder tube assembly will be rebuilt from hull up. Here is my question. I stopped on way home tonight at a local marine supply and they suggested the Buck Algonquin catalog which I checked upon getting home. It looks like they have what I need. This would seem to be it: Item # 00rp200a, Bronze Rudder Ports - Outside Mount - Square Flange on Buck Algonquin

The only question I have relates to the BA port being an outside mount but my original was inside. I would need to use the matching backing plates on the outside of the hull and possibly drill new holes for 1/2" stainless thru bolts but I would think setting this all in a good bed of Boat Life should work. What is the prevailing opinion here?

Lastly is anyone else surprised to see my hull thickness at about 3/8"? I had been told that these 60's era boats would have an inch or more of glass in the hull.
 

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#156 ·
The saga continues.......
The linked tubes you posted include a stuffing box seal, so that works as long as your 'slightly under' 2" shaft won't have excessive clearance, and that the seal will contact/seal as designed ( I expect the seal will work OK)

By the look of them, too, no reason why you couldn't mount it 'inside' just like your old one was.. they look like essentially the same setup.

Building your own tube and going with Denise's hose coupling stuffing box units may/may not work out less expensive, you'll have to do some checking on prices. Is the 5" height right for you for getting above the waterline and leaving room for the quadrant?
 
#155 ·
Make it easy on yourself and simply glass & epoxy in a fiberglass tube and then get one of those bellows type seals you talked about earlier. It'll be cheaper and easier and more secure and more leakproof and more conventional practice etc. etc.

That external mount fitting looks like it's intended for fishboats or something. I wouldn't want my rudder tube depending on caulking to keep the sea out - way too much repetitive lateral force on it.

As to your hull thickness - you have now officially learned the facts of old fiberglass boats. :) The "inch thick" small boats of that era are fish stories and old wives tales. They DID know what they were doing back then and all the stories about them using wooden boat scantlings and so forth because "they didn't know the material" are all a bunch of hooey. The hull of my 1970 Columbia 43 was two 1/4" skins of glass with 1/2" balsa between. It was 2" thick in the very bottom where the keel attached but not elsewhere.

If you don't believe me, read "Heart of Glass" by Daniel Spurr.
 
#157 ·
Any further idea's on repairing a frozen Rudder post, I have the exact same problem and the DW40 trick does not seem to be working after a weeks soaking. It's a stainless steel shaft and does move under pressure, however I am unable to see how I can remove the rudder and shaft ??? any further idea's
Thanks,
"On The Road Again
 
#158 ·
OTR... I am far from an expert but my recent experience left me thinking that Kroils is the best way to go for penetrating oil. General opinion among folks here is not real high on WD40. Kroils only available online and it ain't cheap. But it did break my seriously frozen rudder up. That and I used sandwiched 8' 2x4s sandwiched on each side of the rudder to give me leverage in manipulating it.
 
#159 ·
Before (or while) waiting for a mail order of Kroil, try a 50/50 mix of ATF & acetone.
 
#160 ·
Hows about this? I clean up the original tube/port and rebed it in Boat Life, lock it down mechanically with the 4 ss 1/2" bolts and then glass it in from inside. Then I could add any number of spud type seals to the top of the rudder tube to create the seal. The original tube/port would clean up fine and that original bronze bearing is as good as new.
 
#162 ·
Yes I would use a multi saw for a clean perpendicular cut just below where all that old stuffing box remnant it. I that would leave me with a clean new SS rudder tube but about 3/4" shorter. It is a very solid unit and everything would fit right back into the hull. With fresh bedding and glassing from inside it should be even stronger than glassing in a fiberglass tube . I would have to glass first and then drill new holes up through so bolts go in last.
 
#163 ·
Rick... There's nothing wrong with your old tube, aside from the damage done by extracting the old seal. Yes, it was wise to extract the tube and inspect the connection/seal at the hull. I would re-fit the top seal (use whatever you prefer for that), re-bed it in 3M 5200 (very permanent!) or Life Calk (polysulfide), and be done with it. No glass needed -- none was needed for over 45 years, so why re-invent the wheel? KISS.
 
#164 ·
I tend to agree with you Paul. I think cleaning all surfaces and re bedding would do the trick. Glassing would probably be overkill. I am thinking a stuffing box like Denise shows above to fit to top of tube. Would be a fairly easy refit. Someone asked about a backing plate on outside of hull to create sandwich of hull but there was nothing of that sort originally. Just the four bolts up through the hull with washers and nuts inside.
 
#165 ·
After a week on the road and all day rain yesterday I finally got a few hours in on the boat today. The stuffing box is in and fits well to rudder tube. I got the old stuffing box cut off the tube today as well. Then I prepped the hull inside for bedding tomorrow. The rudder shaft had a few nicks and corrosion spots but all sanded down well. So tomorrow we will bed the tube and then give it a few days to cure before putting the rudder back in. I one step at a time.
 
#166 ·
Well some good progress today. See pics. Got the refit rudder tube bedded in Life Calk today. Was cool and windy but my faithful wife assistant hung in there while we got it all gooped up and tightened down. I plan to give it until Saturday to cure and hopefully reinsert rudder hardware. The job today went well though there was some minor panic as we had to work hard to get all four bolts to line up well. Probably used too much calk. :) See pics.
 

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#168 ·
Nice looking job! Your progress has been really impressive, rbyham. It's been interesting to watch you go from "let the pros have at it" to becoming a bit of an expert on this situation yourself. Well done!
 
#169 ·
Thanks for the encouragements folks. I feel good about where we are with launch plan. Ultimately splash will tell the tale. :)

But honestly I doubt I would have tried this repair apart from guidance and encouragement found on this forum. The HR28 is much less a mystery to me today.

I know you all have heard it before but a noobie is very appreciative and excited to meet more of the Charleston sailing community once I get into a slip. That and I cannot wait to get 8 years of storage grime off the boat and see what she can really look like. :)

Our Colorado daughter is bringing a young man this week to meet us. I plan at this point to spend Saturday with him and my local son putting the rudder back in. Will be a good chance to hang out with our son who is very excited about the boat and get to know the new guy as he really is.
 
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#170 ·
Well the stuffing box/rudder replacement job is done! Yep. I had two good helpers Saturday and with them pushing from below and me inside inserting box and quadrant on we got her all up in and buttoned down. Looks real nice. Took about 3 hours. I used 3/8" graphite rope. Testing the steering she goes lock to lock real smooth. BUT sad to say no pics yet. Hopefully this afternoon I will get back over for a final pic. Thanks for all the help here. Assuming it will be dry on launch this has been a good experience for me. I know the boat very well at this point which is a huge bonus.

NOW... this has me wondering about the box on the prop shaft. Stuffing there is vintage 2002 with boat on the hard since 2005. Should I open that box up and replace that rope? I have started the engine and run for up to 10 minutes. Feeling the shaft and box at t hat point they were mildly warm but no where near hot. And that on the hard with no water to cool. What do you think?

Again much thanks for all the guidance along the way. Man boatyards must hate you all! :)
 
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#172 ·
this has been a good experience for me. I know the boat very well at this point which is a huge bonus.
That's what DIY is all about (as well as saving a few boat bucks).

As to doing your shaft stuffing, probably a good idea but be careful of the dreaded "as long as we're here we might as well...." or you'll never get launched. :)
 
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