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Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

25K views 195 replies 26 participants last post by  Mervs1 
#1 ·
Well I took the plunge today. My offer on a 1966 HH 28 was accepted and I am a new owner. I am excited to get going fitting her out to go back in the water. The only potentially serious problem to be addressed is a frozen rudder. Using the wheel above and putting pressure on rudder below because she is on the hard, the rudder refuses to move at all. Even after dousing the shaft from above with WD40 overnight. Any ideas on how to approach a repair? The boat has been stored for a number of years so no doubt something has seized up over time. The seller says he had previously exercised the rudder regularly. He appeared as surprised as I that my third visit to see the boat revealed the frozen rudder. See pic but I am looking for ways to approach a fix. The rudder neither turns nor can it be dropped. Thanks.
 

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#4 ·
HINTERHOELLER 28 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Wow! Congrats! You really like classic plastic boats, don't you?

Regarding the immobile rudder: are you sure that the quadrant and associated pulleys are cleanly rigged and working? I'd check the steering mechanism first as it may be holding the shaft stuck in one position.

If the rudder shaft/tube is the culprit you could try pouring a little vinegar down the tube and see if leaks out the bottom. If that is truly crudded up you may need to employ a coat hangar (or similar) to poke into the tube to try to break up an obstruction.

Some rudder shafts have a stuffing box fitting. I'd check for this as well. The packing in the stuffing box could also be responsible for immobilizing the shaft.

In any event, I hope it is an easy fix, for your sake.
 
#5 ·
The top end appears to be working properly. But it does have a stuffing box. Vinegar eh? Can try that. ill work on it a bit this weekend. Probably just a matter of being persistent. I was considering getting two 2x4x8s and bolt them together sandwiching the rudder. That would give me 8' of leverage to see if I could break it loose. What do you think?
 
#7 · (Edited)
I expect vinegar (a mild acid) is hoped to dissolve any corrosion that might be seizing the rudder.. I'd be cautious about applying too much leverage to the blade.. Is it truly, rigidly stuck or does it have some wiggle?

Try easing off the stuffing box and see what you find.. Did the WD40 run through? Repeated soakings of a better penetrant like PB blaster is worth a shot before you get too physical.

There may well be an upper AND/OR a lower bushing that could be the culprit...
 
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#12 ·
I tend to agree with you about belaying the use of vinegar, however mild its effect might be.

Since it is a mild acid it can help remove scale and rust that may have built up, but it certainly does not have to be the first course of action.

Belay the forcing the rudder for now and work on the stuffing box. For that you should use PB Blaster to soak the nuts (WD 40 not so much) and get a pair of wrenches you can use to exert force in the space provided.

Using brute force on most things boat related (except plumbing and engine related wrench work) can cause unintended consequences (eg., more to fix later).
 
#9 ·
We did not see the wd40 come through. This may end up being one for a boatyard. Purchase price left plenty of room to let the pros have at it.
 
#11 ·
take some photos first! I'd think about a pipe wrench on the rudder shaft to give you leverage.. you don't want to use the wheel and cable for that. and you really don't want to be twisting on the rudder because the foam inside will loosen from the inside. "Kroil" is a really good penetrating product.
 
#14 ·
take some photos first! I'd think about a pipe wrench on the rudder shaft to give you leverage.. you don't want to use the wheel and cable for that. and you really don't want to be twisting on the rudder because the foam inside will loosen from the inside. "Kroil" is a really good penetrating product.
I don't know the "Kroil" stuff - worth a try.

If you take more photos from the inside we can se what you see :)
 
#16 ·
Thanks for folks. Will try the kroil. Being a noob I have to ask where to buy? Is that a Walmart item? Hoping to get some pix up today of new to me boat.
 
#17 ·
The only potentially serious problem to be addressed is a frozen rudder. Using the wheel above and putting pressure on rudder below because she is on the hard, the rudder refuses to move at all. ...The rudder neither turns nor can it be dropped. Thanks.
Well, this brings back nightmares! I had a similar experience with my 1983 Nonsuch 26, also built by Hinterhoeller. I have no idea whether your boat is constructed the same way mine was, but I'll give you the short version of my experience.

Wheel was getting harder and harder to turn. One day I came back to the boat (in the water) and the wheel was completely frozen. I figured the rudder shaft needed more grease, so I used the emergency tiller to "break free" the rudder and added grease. Seemed to work ok after that and I sailed the rest of the season. It was only I pulled the boat for the season I found out what the real problem was.:eek:

The rudder shaft goes throught a fiberglass tube called the rudder log. The log is held upright by three plywood struts and surrounded by fiberglass tabbing. Where the tube meets the hull there is caulk.

In my case, the log had completely seized on the rudder shaft. When I "broke free" the rudder what actually happened is that I broke the connections between the log and the plywood and fiberglass supports. Rather than the rudder shaft spinning freely inside the log, the shaft and log were spinning as a unit inside of the fiberglass tabbing. When I added grease, it only went between the log and the tabbing.

The fix: Contractor had to drop the rudder, rudder shaft, and log as a single unit out of the boat. They had to use a press to get the shaft out of the log. Because of grease contamination, they had to tear down and rebuild the plywood supports and tabbing.

It's now better than it was when it was new. But it wasn't an easy or cheap fix.

I hope that your problem is different and can be resolved with much less effort.
Jim
 
#20 ·
I found PB Buster available locally today so I have soaked her down real good. Still frozen but I also got pictures. See attached. I had a mobile marine tech on board as well to get his opinion. He could not see anything obvious but is willing to tackle it step by step. He did not think the gland thing could create enough grip to freeze the rudder. I think he suspects it is bent but I think that unlikely. My reasoning is that the seller has owned and sailed it extensively since 2000 and never had any grounding mishaps. The seller was as surprised as I to discover it frozen the day before we struck a deal. Anyway, see the pics.

Jiminri that is a sad story and one I hope does not come to pass here. Looking at the photos I see no plywood struts nor tabbing so I am guessing this is a different setup. I guess only time will tell. Thanks all... Please note that the large run at the base of the orange "gland" is a ring clamp loosened already. There were 4 ring clamps on that gland piece but have been removed over the past several days as the seller who is quite handy made some last ditch attempts to rectify before we sealed the deal. I am still feeling good about the deal and confident we will see this one through but any and all feedback/guidance will be much appreciated. Please note that brute force which is normally my forte has been avoided. But it was fun stuffing my 6'2" 225lb frame into the port lazarette upside down to assess the situation and take the photos. Not sure I was build to go below ground on boats. The admiral thought it hilarious that she had to pull me out by my belt.
 

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#22 ·
I found PB Buster available locally today so I have soaked her down real good.
Rbyham--I received the information that follows below in an email. I cannot vouch for the article, but at least one of the members of our Nonsuch group used the home brew mixture with good success. I had not heard of your boat before, but I googled it and it looks great. I've been really impressed with the build quality on my Hinterhoeller Nonsuch(es). I'm sure you'll be pleased and have fun.

"Machinist's Workshop" recently published information on various penetrating
oils. The magazine reports they tested these products for "break out
"torque" on rusted nuts and bolts. A subjective test was made of popular
penetrating oils, with the unit of merit being the torque required to
remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" bolt.
Average torque load to loosen nut:
No Oil used ........................516 foot pounds
WD-40 ..................... ........238 foot pounds
PB Blaster .........................214 foot pounds
Liquid Wrench ......................127 foot pounds
Kano Kroil .........................106 foot pounds
ATF/Acetone mix...................... 53 foot pounds

The ATF/Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50/50 automatic transmission
fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any
commercial product in this one particular test.
Our local machinist group mixed up a batch, and we all now use it with
equally good results. Note also that Liquid Wrench is almost as good as
Kroil for 20% of the price.
ATF/Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a
50/50 mix. ATF = Any type of Automatic Transmission Fluid
 
#21 ·
My friend with a Nonsuch 26 had the same problem - stiff to turn, plywood webbing and tabbing letting go. Turns out it was extremely over greased (had a hose run to threaded fitting on tube and pumped with grease gun, not the way it was designed, builder-installed grease cup had been removed to make it 'convenient'). Had yard remove rudder, totally degrease tube, break out webbing and tabbing, realign stock in tube, then laminate in new plywood webbing - problem solved. It was so bad the grease was penetrating between the hull and the tabbing.

Same builder, different era, BUT maybe the same problem?
 
#23 ·
The Kroil is on order and Blaster is on it now. I will go over to the boat today and give her a good shot of the Acetone/ATF home brew mentioned above. Thanks all. If the treatments don't get it, I am turning this one over to the pros. As a beginner I want critical parts like rudder, mast, rigging to be set by pros in the hope that builds in an added safety level. But if anyone has other ideas I am all ears. Thanks!
 
#25 ·
There is a knob on the Edson to lock the wheel. is that what you mean? That is loose and the wheel turns freely until the rudder seems to resist. Looking below while bumping the wheel, all cables and pulleys appear to be live as they move until hitting rudder resistance.
 
#26 · (Edited)
RBY, , What do you think the pros are going to do? Same things you are trying! It's going to be VERY expensive for sure...You searched and searched for a nearly free boat because of cost.. It really is time for you to know about your boat and how it all works. Not much can't be learned if you take the time to self educate.

Has anyone suggested heating the rudder tube? NOT with open flame.
 
#27 ·
Thanks Denise... I hear you on needing to learn the boat. I do want to do that. My background is fairly strong in RVs so understanding most of the systems is something I already have. But the specifically nautical pieces (rigging, mast, steering/rudder) are all new. But I see the logic in your thoughts. I will see how it goes... Heating has been suggested from the standpoint of heating the Kroil (which I know is flammable). Are you thinking like hair dryer or heat gun? Not a bad idea. Unfortunately the yard I am in has no elec or water.
 
#28 ·
Heat gun and portable generator? Is there any give at all in the rudder shaft up down even? Photos would help us help you for sure on this.
If it has a fiberglass tube between the deck and hull. or from the hull up to the packing gland.. maybe you could spilt the tube with a small right angle saw wheel then spread the slot with something like a wedge, would be easier then ripping out the tube.
A Dremel tool may be too light for the task. Assuming.. this is the problem.. you need to crawl in there! I have in my boat to drop the rudder.. LOL
 
#29 ·
Can you access the top end of the rudder shaft? I'm thinking loosen everything on the shaft - quadrant etc. then hold a piece of pipe of the same diameter as the shaft on the top end and some "firm" taps with a big dead blow hammer.
 
#30 ·
I did get a little deeper into the rudder shaft issue today. I have all kinds of penetrating fluids working for me. I believe the top “bushing” is free as fluids pretty much drip right through onto the quadrant. But the bottom/hull seal appears to be a different story. You can see in the pictures that the bottom seal was originally a packing gland wrapped by the orange colored hose. Above that is the bottom side of a flange in which I believe packing rope got sandwiched by a second flange that slid down from above and bolted to the lower still visible flange. This made the watertight seal. Unfortunately the upper flange snapped into three pieces upon removal.

Regardless, with the upper part of the seal now broken it would appear I am either looking at finding the original flange (where does one order these things?) or upgrading the whole thing with an updated rudder seal. Hopefully I could find a replacement seal that fit the bolt pattern on the hull thus avoiding having to rework the hull too. Either way I am looking at dropping the rudder in order to get the flange or new seal in place. So I still have to deal with whatever is frozen in order to drop the shaft.

I am not discouraged. I was prepared for this kind of job and had already adjusted the purchase price. Plus there is nothing like hanging upside down in a lazarette for 4 hours to help one learn one’s new boat.

I am still attracted to the idea of heat. That might loosen things. Also I can access the top of the rudder post yes. However, I think there is a pin in the top of the shaft somewhere holding it all up. I am having trouble locating the pin. Once located and removed I may give her a few gentle taps.

See photos for details.

Rick
 

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#33 ·
I did get a little deeper into the rudder shaft issue today. I have all kinds of penetrating fluids working for me. I believe the top "bushing" is free as fluids pretty much drip right through onto the quadrant. But the bottom/hull seal appears to be a different story. You can see in the pictures that the bottom seal was originally a packing gland wrapped by the orange colored hose. Above that is the bottom side of a flange in which I believe packing rope got sandwiched by a second flange that slid down from above and bolted to the lower still visible flange. This made the watertight seal. Unfortunately the upper flange snapped into three pieces upon removal.
Are you able to dig out the "packing rope" it would make it easiser for the oil's you are using to go further down.

Regardless, with the upper part of the seal now broken it would appear I am either looking at finding the original flange (where does one order these things?) or upgrading the whole thing with an updated rudder seal. Hopefully I could find a replacement seal that fit the bolt pattern on the hull thus avoiding having to rework the hull too. Either way I am looking at dropping the rudder in order to get the flange or new seal in place. So I still have to deal with whatever is frozen in order to drop the shaft.

I am not discouraged. I was prepared for this kind of job and had already adjusted the purchase price. Plus there is nothing like hanging upside down in a lazarette for 4 hours to help one learn one's new boat.

I am still attracted to the idea of heat. That might loosen things. Also I can access the top of the rudder post yes. However, I think there is a pin in the top of the shaft somewhere holding it all up. I am having trouble locating the pin. Once located and removed I may give her a few gentle taps.

See photos for details.

Rick
You must drop the ruder so you can inspect the rudder shaft.
I would start by dismantling the parts you can get access to.
The rudder quadrant must be taken off, seems to be made of aluminium.
Gentle heating with a torch can help release the SS bolts.

The ring in your picture between the stuffing box and the quadrant - do you know what purpose it have?

If you have to replace the stuffing box and bearings I would look at alternative solutions.
New solutions have been found since the boat was new :)

Here is a company with info on different solutions.
Jefa rudder and steering systems
direct link to an upgrade
Converting from plain bearings to roller bearings
Here is alternative solutions to get a seal
Sealing systems
 
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