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  #31  
Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Keel Bolts

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Originally Posted by Barquito View Post
I have been enjoying this conversation from the security of my encapsulated lead keel...
I'll second that. My next boat will have an encapsulated keel. My last one did. Too many worries-No joy.
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  #32  
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Re: Keel Bolts

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Yep holes filled with epoxy, barrel bolt set in about 1/8" from edge of keel, torqued correctly, no plywood left in bilge.... It was always the very forward one on both sides that had weeps. After haul out there would be a faint wet ring and by spring a decent crack around the hole edges.... I suspect when you put lead, bronze and epoxy all with differing expansion traits, plus the movement of a keel and the loads it makes it hard for the epoxy to survive.. I even thickened it with milled fibers and cabosil on one attempt....
MS, when you did this work to your C30, did you drill all new holes(C30's have 8 bolts, I believe)? If so how did you place the new bolt holes, in the same pattern as the originals, only a little in front of or behind the orginals. I assume you did not remove the old keel bolts. For the bolts that were in pairs(side by side) did you put the new ones in the same (side by side) or offset a little bit so as to not have those windows in the same plane, so to speak. I have seen this as a recommendation on some website and it seems to make some sense to me. I can't see a downside to it.

In my case I think I will put the additional two bolts staggared fore and aft a little (3-4 inches) so that I can move them in a little more toward the centerline of the keel. On my boat the existing pairs are set quite wide in the sump and can't be very far from the outside of the lead.

Thanks for your comments.
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  #33  
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Re: Keel Bolts

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Originally Posted by Ajay73 View Post
I'll second that. My next boat will have an encapsulated keel. My last one did. Too many worries-No joy.
Encapsulated keels have their own issues. Repairs after a hard grounding are more difficult. I prefer bare lead.
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  #34  
Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Keel Bolts

[quote=Ajay73;986505]
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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post

I'm just cautioning against drilling additional holes in one's boat without a really good reason and firm engineering.

The reason would be to spread the keel load. I would think that's a pretty good reason.
I wish you the best with your project, if your heart is set on it.

However, one only needs to spread keel load, if it isn't appropriately spread already. Engineering doesn't seem to exist to suggest as much.
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  #35  
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Re: Keel Bolts

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Originally Posted by msmith10 View Post
Encapsulated keels have their own issues. Repairs after a hard grounding are more difficult. I prefer bare lead.
Mark, I sail in the same area as you, western Lake Erie. It's mostly a sand bottom but I do know there are some rocks, but not many. I have never run aground in my sailing but I don't really roam that far. I would gladly give up the worry over keel bolts which is always in thoughts versus running aground which is a much more remote possibility for me.. I'm not totally certain but with an encapsulated keel I believe ther is less chance of sinking, but that's just a guess on my part.

Last edited by Ajay73; 02-06-2013 at 03:04 PM.
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  #36  
Old 02-06-2013
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Re: Keel Bolts

Ajay, when you mention your next boat, bear in mind this boat will be worth substantially less when the next buyer sees there have been keel repairs. No matter what you say or why, simply having keel repairs changes the value of the boat and raises a question of "why" and "what's wrong".

I can't see any reason to do substantial job like this when there's apparently nothing wrong with your keel as it is. If you don't trust the design and construction, sell the boat now. If you are worried about crevice corrosion failure, have you replaced all the standing rigging yet? That's far more likely to fail, because ccf affects damp parts and keel bolts are usually totally dry inside the keel. Only the tops, easily visible, are subject to ccf from dampness in the bilge.

Maine-
I also would prefer J-bolts to lag bolts, but consider that lag bolts and lead shields ("Rawl" plugs, etc.) are also the standard way to attach almost everything to exterior masonry walls. All sorts of heavy stuff that gets ignored for fifty years, and those lag bolts hold, assuming they were properly installed. I used to shoot some gasket sealer, the black tarry stuff, in before installing the bolt to ensure there couldn't be any moisture penetration.
Just saying, lag bolts have some track record when applied in lead.
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Re: Keel Bolts

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Ajay, when you mention your next boat, bear in mind this boat will be worth substantially less when the next buyer sees there have been keel repairs. No matter what you say or why, simply having keel repairs changes the value of the boat and raises a question of "why" and "what's wrong".

I can't see any reason to do substantial job like this when there's apparently nothing wrong with your keel as it is. If you don't trust the design and construction, sell the boat now. If you are worried about crevice corrosion failure, have you replaced all the standing rigging yet? That's far more likely to fail, because ccf affects damp parts and keel bolts are usually totally dry inside the keel. Only the tops, easily visible, are subject to ccf from dampness in the bilge.

Maine-
I also would prefer J-bolts to lag bolts, but consider that lag bolts and lead shields ("Rawl" plugs, etc.) are also the standard way to attach almost everything to exterior masonry walls. All sorts of heavy stuff that gets ignored for fifty years, and those lag bolts hold, assuming they were properly installed. I used to shoot some gasket sealer, the black tarry stuff, in before installing the bolt to ensure there couldn't be any moisture penetration.
Just saying, lag bolts have some track record when applied in lead.
I haven't replaced my standing rigging but I pulled it all and had it checked by a rigger. Checked out fine. As far as keel repairs go any prospective buyer will already see that my keel has been repaired by pulling out all the plywood that Catalina engineering, in its wisdom, decided to put in there. My keel sump doesn't look like any "normal" Catalina sump. If this prospective buyer is looking for a Catalina 27 I will inform him to look if anyone selling their Catalina has made the repair. This modification will further strengthen that part of the boat. If it is surveyed I'm sure a surveyor would agree.

I'm kind of amazed how everyone is so intent on trying to tell me why I shouldn't do this. Don't we want to bullet proof our boats? Don't we wish our boats were over built in critical areas? Why is that? The work involved isn't that big a deal.

Last edited by Ajay73; 02-06-2013 at 06:29 PM.
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Re: Keel Bolts

[quote=Minnewaska;986618]
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Originally Posted by Ajay73 View Post

I wish you the best with your project, if your heart is set on it.

However, one only needs to spread keel load, if it isn't appropriately spread already. Engineering doesn't seem to exist to suggest as much.
The load will just be spread further, which isn't a bad thing, is it? Catalina engineering decided to put the wood in the sump which wasn't a smart thing in my opinion. Anything can be improved, no?
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Re: Keel Bolts

" haven't replaced my standing rigging but I pulled it all and had it checked by a rigger. Checked out fine."
That means nothing. CCF is tied to sudden failure, and unless every piece was magnafluxed or dye checked or x-rayed--each and every one--a visual inspection is meaningless. That means not just the rigging, but the turnbuckles and eyes and everything from the chainplates up. I don't think any agency or organization would suggest going more than 20 years without replacing it all, regardless of how little or lightly it was used.

"As far as keel repairs go any prospective buyer will already see that"
Sorry, but the typical buyer won't be YOU. It will be someone who only sees and understands that something was wrong, something was changed, and now they have to assume it might have been fixed correctly--or not. There will always be some question of what was done, why it was done, and whether it was done correctly. After all, you are not a professional yard, you're "some guy". Can they assume you did it correctly?

if this really is an issue with all Cat27s, that's something else again, as you say. But if the only issue was rotting plywood floors, the qurestion comes back, why more keel bolts? Folks just don't do that unless there's a problem.

"I'm kind of amazed how everyone is so intent on trying to tell me why I shouldn't do this. Don't we want to bullet proof our boats?" Nope. We're sailors or boaters, not Yachtsmen. We're cheap. We don't spend lots of time and money on stuff that makes no difference, like extra keel bolts when the original ones are just fine. And, you're not bullet-proofing the boat if the time and money spent on the keel bolts is tilting at a windmill.

Keel bolts? If they are needed, the procedure is normally to drop the keel, clean out the joint, rebed it completely, and then bolt it back up with whatever is needed. If you want to do it that way, you can rebed with 5200 and even if all the bolts fail, the keel will stay attached. That's bullet-proof. Two more bolts? Gilding the lilly.

Amazed? Well, if the chorus thinks you are wasting time and money...maybe the chorus is wrong. Or maybe, their collective experience is worth considering. Your boat, your choice. I'd spend the time and money on the standing rigging, rudder, stanchions or deck core, other issues that always come up first.
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  #40  
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Re: Keel Bolts

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
" haven't replaced my standing rigging but I pulled it all and had it checked by a rigger. Checked out fine."
That means nothing. CCF is tied to sudden failure, and unless every piece was magnafluxed or dye checked or x-rayed--each and every one--a visual inspection is meaningless. That means not just the rigging, but the turnbuckles and eyes and everything from the chainplates up. I don't think any agency or organization would suggest going more than 20 years without replacing it all, regardless of how little or lightly it was used.

"As far as keel repairs go any prospective buyer will already see that"
Sorry, but the typical buyer won't be YOU. It will be someone who only sees and understands that something was wrong, something was changed, and now they have to assume it might have been fixed correctly--or not. There will always be some question of what was done, why it was done, and whether it was done correctly. After all, you are not a professional yard, you're "some guy". Can they assume you did it correctly?

if this really is an issue with all Cat27s, that's something else again, as you say. But if the only issue was rotting plywood floors, the qurestion comes back, why more keel bolts? Folks just don't do that unless there's a problem.

"I'm kind of amazed how everyone is so intent on trying to tell me why I shouldn't do this. Don't we want to bullet proof our boats?" Nope. We're sailors or boaters, not Yachtsmen. We're cheap. We don't spend lots of time and money on stuff that makes no difference, like extra keel bolts when the original ones are just fine. And, you're not bullet-proofing the boat if the time and money spent on the keel bolts is tilting at a windmill.

Keel bolts? If they are needed, the procedure is normally to drop the keel, clean out the joint, rebed it completely, and then bolt it back up with whatever is needed. If you want to do it that way, you can rebed with 5200 and even if all the bolts fail, the keel will stay attached. That's bullet-proof. Two more bolts? Gilding the lilly.

Amazed? Well, if the chorus thinks you are wasting time and money...maybe the chorus is wrong. Or maybe, their collective experience is worth considering. Your boat, your choice. I'd spend the time and money on the standing rigging, rudder, stanchions or deck core, other issues that always come up first.
I had a professional re-glass the keel sump. I just removed all the plywood.

The keel sump is an issue with all C27's before 1988.

Two more bolts is adding to the strength to the keel connection.

The people I had look at the rigging do it for a living. I don't know how they did it but they said it was good. Also, I don't know where you sail but here in the Great Lakes(fresh water) it's common for rigging that isn't raced and stressed to go 30+ years.

If the buyer isn't me then he probably won't know the difference. The something that was wrong is on all C27's. Everyone fixed is going to look different.

I really wasn't asking if I should do the work, but if how I was proposing to do it was sound.

You're right on one thing my boat, my choice.

Is the lecture over? I wasn't looking for one but you sure seem to be in that mode.

You didn't answer one question I asked. You just decided I needed a lecture.

Last edited by Ajay73; 02-06-2013 at 08:04 PM.
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