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  #31  
Old 02-19-2013
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Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

What I'm uncomfortable with is the OP using this discussion forum as a proxy to put leverage on the sailmaker. We've only heard one side of the story and the OP has only cut and pasted a couple of fragments of the conversation and we've no idea what discussion has gone on.

It's a case of "I can't get what I want so I'll use the internet to damage this guy's business until he gives me what I want"

I'll tell the OP this though, if you're not willing to send the sail back, and not willing to have the sail fixed locally, you are stuck with it.
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  #32  
Old 02-19-2013
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Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
When I hear some tale like this, I am glad to live in America, the home of too much government regulation.

With written specifications for the sail, and a substantially non-conforming product delivered, there are multiple layers of legal recourse and while it could take a month or three, the seller would be required to make a full refund AND absorb the cost of picking up his non-conforming goods.

Does Oz or NZ have no protection for consumers? No mention of why that wasn't the first recourse? Or does this tale of woe fall into other jurisdictions? Did you mail a packet of cash, or a money order? Half-unspoken posts on web sites won't accomplish what other legal remedies usually will.
If it makes you glad to live in America, doesn't that imply that, in this case, there is the CORRECT amount of regulation.
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  #33  
Old 02-19-2013
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Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

I'm calling BS on this whole thread. To borrow a phrase from Cool Hand Luke- "What we've got here is failure to communicate". IMO, the OP obviously did not do a good job of communicating his wishes clearly and the sail maker didn't do a good job of explaining what he would deliver. When you read this thread and the other thread on CF you see phrases like " the sailmaker should have known". Really? There is also is a lesson here in that you should probably deal locally if you have very specific needs. If the OP was local to the sailmaker he could bring the sail back to loft, demand it be fixed, or his money back, or a new sail. Probably would have been resolved by now. The OPs biggest problem is that he/she is a world away from the sailmaker. On a tight budget, the freight to send the sail back eats into the cost quite a bit. On the other thread the OP said he was having the sail modified locally and keeping it. So why post here on sailnet if you have already resolved the issue? You would think that would be the end of the story but no, the OP seems to want to punish the sailmaker. Obviously whining about it on CF wasn't enough. Threatening the sailmaker with negative reports on sailing websites would appear to cut off any realistic path to a settlement. Anybody want to buy this guy's book after this?

BTW- all those recommending legal recourse are nuts. Good luck coming out whole on that. Considering the legal fees, time, and expenses you could easily spend more recovering your money than you would get. No guarantee that you would win.You might feel better but your pocket would be lighter and you still wouldn't have a sail.
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  #34  
Old 02-19-2013
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Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Mark-
I'm not sure about a correct amount of regulation. There are folks who would say the Mafia manages to make things work with much less paperwork than Congress.

With the smattering on information we have here, who knows. In the US, where the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) can often be applied, sometimes the guy who SENT the non-conforming goods is responsible for taking them back. As I explained to a company that sent the wrong hard drive to a business once (a pricey server drive) the old one would be held for a pickup for 30 days, as per the UCC. And then placed on the doorstep with the trash, if they didn't feel like sending a pickup for it.

And yes, that's US law for certain transactions. Consumers don't always get it so easy, but when you didn't order something? Or, you ordered a cow and someone sent a goat? Not your problem, if you can document it. "Well its got four legs and a tail, isn't that close enough?" Ah, no.

I'll offer any vendor one carrot, once. After that? It's the stick. Here, well, we just don't know the laws, the terms, the much of anything. Except both sides apparently agree the sail is white.

That's a good start, right?!
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  #35  
Old 02-19-2013
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Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
I'm talking about manufacturing processes, not people. People aren't making sails anymore, not laminates anyway, and the dacron stuff is usually completed in other countries w/ much cheaper labor. They're just finishing them/selling them. Q sails (in my experience, laminate sails) hold their shape longer w/o delamination. They do tend to be a bit heavier than North. Norths are fast, but after 3 seasons, they're starting to fall apart.

The above does not include 3Di sails.
I won't disagree with you about the manufacturing processes, but you'll find, as has been the gist of this thread, that people are important too.

There are a myriad of factors (also laid out in this thread) that should be taken into account when making the right sail for any boat and it takes an experienced sailmaker to know what those factors are and to punch in the right numbers. As the saying goes: "garbage in, garbage out"...

Fortunately for you, Quantum will have the numbers for your boat on file for all time, as entered by an experienced sailmaker - but if you ever bought another boat and needed a sail made and the guy you are currently dealing with is working for someone else... good luck to you.


EDIT: The core issue here is that computer-cutting has made sailmakers world-wide... LAZY! They can now churn out very expensive high-speed racing sails for the same high-profile boats every season and make a small fortune out of it without ever having to so much as think about what they're doing... but give them a brand-new, specialist, low-budget, non-racing, low-profile job to do and the vast majority (Quantum and Norths included) simply can't handle it.
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Last edited by Classic30; 02-19-2013 at 05:34 PM.
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  #36  
Old 02-20-2013
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Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Jack,

Being as you have numerous books out, you are probably a bit well known to a degree. Remember, the beetching about something as you have done, can come back to haunt you.

I've spent 30 some odd years landscaping in the area I live in. At an association meeting about 20 yrs ago, some of us that had the same type of clients starting talking about clients from hell. ALL but one at a table of 8 had delt with one women in a local town. A month later she started her normal spring or what ever calling to find someone to replace who she did not like. Even tho many of us felt the yard looked great driving by, no weeds, lawn was edged, green etc. She wanted it cheep! Only would pay X dollars, which was about 3-5 hrs a month, yet it would take 10-12hrs to really keep up the yard, plus fertilizer, weed killers etc. Soon she kept getting increased bills 3-4 times what was started with. because she did not want to pay, but would not pay unless you spent the 10-12 hrs, and she kept track!

She called me one day to get a bid, I told her I would not. Even tho she got my name from the assoc directory. ALong with being the state president at the time. I told her why, along with I had attempted to keep her happy 7 yrs ago. Did not work, I lost my shirt on her place. She moved out of the house a few yrs later, supposedly to a condo or equal. The place never looked good after that phone call, as she could not get anyone to work for her. For many of us knew, she would not pay the proper amount to do what we had to do to keep her yard maintained the way she wanted.

So by beetching about this person, you are as said earlier, saying a lot about yourself. It is possible, that we in the contracting biz call, adding a ding dong factor for folks we feel will be PITA's! will do just that for you now. As ratting on the internet, can get you the other way around! It was not uncommon for me to add upwards of 20-30% of what I might normally charge for someone I could tell would be PITA! If I got the job, I was at least partially covered for said ding dong. If I did not get the job, oh well.........

Not sure if as you stated, all was agreed to up front, be it your fault for not, or if you did say truly what you wanted, but made it also be you wanted low cost......being as this sailmaker is literally as far from you as can be.......may not have worried about you, cared or otherwise......This episode can and may bite both of you in the rear asset! Be careful in how you continue to approach the issue at hand! There is ALWAYS two sides to any given situation!

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  #37  
Old 02-20-2013
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Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

To me a picture is worth a thousand words, and that picture shows me that the sail provided might be suitable for a dinghy sailing on a small inland lake. I too would be upset about receiving such a sail provided the sailmaker knew that I was a blue water sailor.
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  #38  
Old 02-20-2013
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Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

SN as always is a good place to start when doing research for new stuff for your boat. Yes I am going to replace my main sail, and will do some looking around for what I want, as I have in the past. Hopefully I can avoid some problems.
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  #39  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Fortunately for you, Quantum will have the numbers for your boat on file for all time, as entered by an experienced sailmaker - but if you ever bought another boat and needed a sail made and the guy you are currently dealing with is working for someone else... good luck to you.
You honestly think that I'll have trouble finding a sailmaker to put together a quality set of string sails in this economy for a 25 footer? There have been 7-800 Merit 25's made. I think any reputable sailmaker can figure it out. Ulman, Q, NS, Doyle, UK, etc. Merits are similar to J24s which gives the designers (not the same as sailmakers/salesmen) a pretty good starting point. The person designing the sail is not working at your local loft.

What 'numbers?' are you talking about? Almost all numbers for boats are online. Given those, any experienced designer can make a sail that will work. From there, it's about R&D and time on the water.

Quote:
EDIT: The core issue here is that computer-cutting has made sailmakers world-wide... LAZY! They can now churn out very expensive high-speed racing sails for the same high-profile boats every season and make a small fortune out of it without ever having to so much as think about what they're doing... but give them a brand-new, specialist, low-budget, non-racing, low-profile job to do and the vast majority (Quantum and Norths included) simply can't handle it.
And you think they don't lose their shirts on the high end market? You think 3Di sails are made perfect on the first try for a Farr 400? TP52? A V70? Ask any sailmaker if they're getting rich. The top end racers aren't keeping North's doors open. It's the cruising boats, club racers, and mid level guys. Yes, the big ticket items help (main for a TP is around 80k) but they aren't the reason North is the largest sailmaker in the world.
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  #40  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: Mainsail from Hell OR am I an Old Fart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
To me a picture is worth a thousand words, and that picture shows me that the sail provided might be suitable for a dinghy sailing on a small inland lake. I too would be upset about receiving such a sail provided the sailmaker knew that I was a blue water sailor.
I'm inclined to agree here. While there ARE always two sides to a story, and we're only getting one of them here, I can't really see how a sailmaker could make a sail like the one in the picture and ship it to someone planning on going offshore.

Questions to the OP, you said 3 lofts quoted you similar prices. Inquiring minds want to know, who else out there is selling sails that cheap?

Advice to the OP: Send the sail back. It is absolutely clear that this sail will not suit you at all. Your options are :
1. Fix it.
2. Buy another.

I don't think option 1 is a viable one, and keeping it around does you no good either. If you send the sail back, you have some pennies in your pocket to try and recover. Perhaps you could rethink the full battens or the track and get a sail without full battens or a Tides Track from Lee (or one of your other low bidders) for the $800 you will get back. That would at least get you an offshore sail and get you sailing.

Another options is sell the brand new sail on E-bay. Maybe there is a placid lake sailor with a big boat that would like a bargain on a new sail. That way you could keep your Tides Track and recoup some costs towards a new sail.

Good Luck,

MedSailor
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