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  #11  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: Different Gun Question

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Looks like you should have went with a bigger font
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  #12  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: Different Gun Question

Allow me to add a corollary to swampcreek's extremely important first rule. A great many people will automatically put their finger on the trigger when they pick up a gun. They learn this by playing with toy guns and by watching stupid movies. If you are with a person and they pick up or hold a gun with their finger on the trigger, you can safely assume they don't know what the hell they are doing and that they are a danger to you and the rest of the crew.
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Old 02-22-2013
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Re: Different Gun Question

If cops run you it, will come up along with everything else about you!It is called the computer age!..Dale
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  #14  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: Different Gun Question

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Originally Posted by deltaten View Post

AFA what Lake stated and davidpm asked... yes! There is a distinct difference between one whom is ignorant of the law and someone taking the right to carry and getting certified. The plain citizen can plead ignorance in court. The certified individual is ..and had better.. know the laws and restrictions. It is your duty to follow all local, municipal, county, state and federal laws wherever you are..even if they change at an imaginary line on a map!

Stay safe!
Paul
Seems to me that this licensed vs. non-licensed gun owner question is analogous to whether you have a CG 100 ton license vs. being a non-licensed cruiser skipper. Those who have licenses are held to a somewhat higher standard than your average joe in a court of law (maritime or otherwise).
That said and having sailed with David, I just can't imagine him losing his patience and shooting a gun at anyone.
It sounds to me as though getting the training without the carry certificate is the way to go unless he takes up deer hunting.
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Old 02-22-2013
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Re: Different Gun Question

most people with consealed carry/large capacity would not allow access to ANY individual who did not have similar credentials on a boat. In fact most would not allow access to ANY weapon to a untrained individual in ANY setting except a range or other safe setting under close supervision.If you are allowed access it speaks volumes about the owner of the weapon's judgment. Weapons should be under the personal control of the owner or locked and unloaded with the ammo locked and stored at a different locale. Many states require just this. Owner who fails to do so knowing your limitations (reponsible gun owners assume everyone else is untrained) is foolish and not someone I would be comfortable with on passage.
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Old 02-23-2013
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Re: Different Gun Question

To answer your question, you should never handle someone else's loaded weapon. They should unload it before transferring it to you or keep it on their person. They should know how to secure their own weapon.

LEOs will not treat you different for having a permit, that's nonsense. It also doesn't show up on some report in every state, that's on a per state basis and many do not have that information.
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Last edited by Shinook; 02-23-2013 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 02-23-2013
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Re: Different Gun Question

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Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
.....I got to thinking that for safety's sake I should at least know if one is loaded and how to remove a clip if it has one, remove a round in the chamber and check the safety.
I am going to stick to your questions and comments specifically. I see little to no reason to need to know how to unload someone else's weapon. If there are not in safe control of it, then simply don't pull the trigger while putting it away somewhere and be sure it isn't pointed at anyone. Doesn't take much more than common sense.

Quote:
I took a one hour one-on-one class at the local gun range. He showed me around about dozen rifles so I've got pretty good idea of how to check if one is loaded.

I have the opportunity to take the one day pistol class and go for my CT pistol licence.
It is a more formal class more about safety etc.
That's great. You're good to go. Take more classes if you like, but this isn't rocket science as you've now learned.

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Can you think of any downside to getting a state pistol permit?
None, but I also see no reason for you to do so, based on your statements. On the other hand, I wish everyone would get one so they can speak intelligently on the topic.

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I am not planning on purchasing a gun and am not asking for advice on that subject. If however I find myself on a boat where someone else has brought a gun on-board I would like your thoughts about what I should know.
If you're not planning to purchase one of your own and only concerned about someone else bringing one aboard, I think there are many other things to worry about first.

You asked for thoughts about what you should know and I think everyone should have basic firearms knowledge, it just isn't very necessary for the reasons you outlined.
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  #18  
Old 02-23-2013
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Re: Different Gun Question

Thank you all. I believe I have gotten some good advice at least it appears to make sense. To summarize:
1. If someone has a gun on board it should be in a locked cabinet when not on the person.
2. There is some legitimate room for disagreement about whether the gun should be loaded and if the ammo should be stored with the gun.
3. When handling the gun the finger should not be near the trigger.
4. When handling the gun the barrel should not be pointed at anyone even when unloaded (duh).
5. I should not be handling someone else's gun without permission except in extreme conditions. (I knew that)
6. If the gun owner wants to show me is gun he should unload it before handing it to me.
6. If the gun owner appears unstable or cavalier about the gun get off the boat. (I knew that too)

As for item 4 above the way I understand it the barrel is pointed towards the floor most of the time. In a boat however that may not be optimal.
Those of you who are comfortable with and have training on guns how do you orient it when on a boat.
I would think that on a passage of several days it should to be cleaned and oiled every few days. So while you are handling it how do you orient it while cleaning for example?
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  #19  
Old 02-23-2013
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Re: Different Gun Question

I'll expand a little bit.

I have carried a gun more or less everywhere I went for several years now. I've also been really active in the gun communities where I live. Some would call me a "gun nut", however I sometimes resent that title :P

There are a few things you should know, I will elaborate on each one:

1. Never take advice on the internet
2. Never take legal advice from anyone that's not a lawyer, including gun shops and police
3. Everything depends on the state you are in
4. My policy: "Don't be a d***, don't be a dumb***"

---

1. In a place like this, you are likely to get 1000 different answers to your questions from people in different geographies who may or may not have ever touched a gun, much less carried one. I would take anything you read here, including my own advice, with a grain of salt. I've seen some really idiotic information on the internet about guns (and everything, in general) and even in this thread. Like everywhere on the internet, people are capable of being "experts" in something they've never done.

2. This is the biggest mistake I see gun owners make and it has resulted in a few people being arrested. In many states, gun laws are NOT that complicated, but gun advocates and cops like to make them out to be super complex and offer you varying interpretations. It's worth noting this isn't exclusive to guns, everyone loves to be a legal expert. There are generally per-state resources you can use to determine the laws in your areas, read them, read the laws themselves, and either hire a lawyer or draw your own interpretation. Again, they are not that hard to understand.

It's worth pointing out that cops don't have to know the law, they only have to enforce it. It's the prosecutor's job to determine if you broke the law, an actual lawyer. I've had some blatantly incorrect advice given out by police that could have caused a lot of trouble. In one extreme case, I heard a cop tell someone that they could carry without a permit in a state that very clearly had permitting requirements. Usually these are minor details though, a cop told me I wasn't allowed to ankle carry in my state and that it had to be "above the waist".

As for gun shops, same situation. They aren't lawyers, they don't know the laws, I've heard people say things that are completely incorrect and could have gotten people in trouble. Educate yourself and see rule #4.

Some states have grey areas, see rule #4.

3. The laws you encounter, the cops you encounter, and the attitude you encounter will all vary from state to state.

Most gun laws vary from state to state. In the state of GA, you are allowed to carry into places that serve alcohol, however in neighboring South Carolina, you are not. This comes back to rule #2, educate yourself about where you are going. In some states, you don't need a permit to have a firearm in a dwelling place (I often wonder if a sailboat could be classified as a dwelling). The permit process will vary, as well. In GA, you don't have to get training, just a background check and the permit is issued. In SC, you have to get training. In MA, you have to get training and convince the local police station you are worth of the "privilege", while other states are required to issue unless you meet certain requirements (felon, convicted drug user, etc).

Someone mentioned law enforcement encounters and that you will be treated poorly or differently. In MY EXPERIENCE, this is complete nonsense. I've encountered countless cops while carrying and in no case did any of them care or treat me poorly, but see rule #4. Does this mean they won't treat you differently? No, I've heard stories from many states where cops abused their perceived authority and treated law abiding individuals poorly for carrying. OTOH, I've heard the same stories told by people that weren't carrying, it was just for some other reason. The point is, in my encounters, cops that will treat you like trash because you have a permit or a gun, will likely do so for any other reason. Also worth noting is that no one tells calm water stories at the sailing bar, in the same vein no one tells about their polite and reasonable cop encounters, only the bad and usually over dramatized ones.

There are millions of permit holds in the US, encountering people with a carry permit is common practice in most states these days. Will you encounter an a**hole cop that thinks you are somehow less of a citizen than him and he should show it? Sure, but you'll have those encounters with or without a gun.

As to some mythical database of carry permit holds, it doesn't exist on a broad scale. There are states where the permit will be tied to your drivers license, however there are also states where maintaining a database of permit holders is against the law and the state isn't allowed to do it. Your best bet? See rule #4 if you are pulled over.

#4. I'll repeat it, "Don't be a d***, don't be a dumb***"

Don't think that because you are carrying a gun or have one you are somehow high and mighty and act like it. I've known SEVERAL people that got arrested for carrying guns in areas where it was clearly illegal, they got busted because they were bragging about it. They knew it was illegal, they thought it somehow made them cool and did it anyway, then got busted when someone called the cops. They were uneducated on the matter, arrogant, and childish.

Also, when you encounter cops, be polite and respectful. If they do something inappropriate, take their name and badge number, deal with it after the encounter. Unless it is a blatant and severe violation of your rights, deal with it after the fact and don't do things just to piss the cop off. You'd be surprised how many people intentionally do things to piss off cops. If they do something wrong, it's not your job to point it out, deal with it via their department or hire a lawyer if it was bad enough. There are cases where you would want to tell them to screw off, but in many negative encounters that I've observed or read about, people took it upon themselves to be d***s. Don't poke the bull, don't get the horns.

Carrying a gun is not that big of a deal, but learn to use it, be safe, and don't be a moron. You don't have to be a gun nut to exercise your rights and it's certainly not rocket science.
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Last edited by Shinook; 02-23-2013 at 10:45 AM.
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  #20  
Old 02-23-2013
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Re: Different Gun Question

My opinion, take it for what it's worth (not much):

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
1. If someone has a gun on board it should be in a locked cabinet when not on the person.
Legally? That depends on the state. I also don't know what will happen if you get boarded by the CG. Personally, I'd prefer they keep it on their person, I don't make a habit of screwing with other people's guns. If they are irresponsible with it on your boat, it may come back to bite you and not them (or both of you). Keeping it locked is your safest bet, but depending on where you are, it may not be legal (IANAL), BUT...

There is something called the "Firearm Owners Protection Act" that allows safe harbor for people traveling through states with weapons. There are requirements on storage and limitations on how it applies. I suggest you do your own research on it to see if it applies and how to abide by it.

As far as safety goes, that's probably the best bet. I wouldn't worry about unloading it, depending on the type of gun, that's a matter of preference. Unlike what's displayed in movies, guns don't magically go off when dropped or hit. Are you safer to unload it? Probably, but I wouldn't consider it a big concern.

Quote:
2. There is some legitimate room for disagreement about whether the gun should be loaded and if the ammo should be stored with the gun.
FOPA has requirements to be met if you aren't going to be arrested for having a firearm in another state. Read to see if it applies here and how to abide by it.

For safety, I wouldn't worry about them being together or even loaded.

Quote:
3. When handling the gun the finger should not be near the trigger.
This is a basic safety rule, I usually keep it alongside the slide on an auto and down the front of the trigger guard in a revolver.

Quote:
4. When handling the gun the barrel should not be pointed at anyone even when unloaded (duh).
"Don't be a dumb***"

Quote:
5. I should not be handling someone else's gun without permission except in extreme conditions. (I knew that)
Make sure you establish ground rules for this before they board, so everyone is on the same page.

Quote:
6. If the gun owner wants to show me is gun he should unload it before handing it to me.
Yes, they should make sure it's safe before handing it over to you.

Quote:
6. If the gun owner appears unstable or cavalier about the gun get off the boat. (I knew that too)
If they are unstable about a gun, I'd consider them unstable and not want them aboard anyway, gun or not.

Quote:
As for item 4 above the way I understand it the barrel is pointed towards the floor most of the time. In a boat however that may not be optimal.
Not necessarily the floor, just a safe direction. Keep in mind though that bullets can travel far and through many surfaces (including drywall and fiberglass), although with handguns their efficiency diminishes with distance and rather quickly.

Go through extreme pains to make sure the gun is unloaded and safe before you handle it. The general rule is to keep it pointed in a safe direction (e.g. not at people). This begs the question, what are you doing with the gun that would require you to handle it loaded? If you are unloading it, keep your finger off the trigger, drop the magazine and eject the round in the slide, leave the slide open, pick up the round, and store it back in the magazine. If you are doing anything else (e.g. dry firing), you should probably do it somewhere else if there is nowhere safe to point it and do it at. I also can't imagine anything else you'd want to do with a gun on a boat, aside from unload and store it or retrieve it. I wouldn't worry about pointing it at the floor or side of the hull while I go through this maneuver, just be aware of where you are pointing it and what is behind what you are pointing it at.

Quote:
I would think that on a passage of several days it should to be cleaned and oiled every few days. So while you are handling it how do you orient it while cleaning for example?
Depends on the gun. Some are made for more extreme conditions and will not rust easily, just make sure you keep all the moving parts oiled and swab oil down the barrel (this is the most common place for rust and pitting due to corrosion). There are usually common wear spots on guns and you can tell where they are after about 500 rds through the gun, you'll see the finish starting to wear off in certain areas, be sure to oil those really well. I'd also rub down the entire gun with a silicon rag.

I'd be more cautious about taking older steel framed guns, though. I've seen some revolvers rust really quickly even on land.

Last edited by Shinook; 02-23-2013 at 11:03 AM.
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