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  #1  
Old 02-27-2013
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Why does this rig not need running back stays

Why does this rig (west sail 32) not need running back stays for the inner forestay?

I am planning something similar.
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Old 02-27-2013
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Re: Why does this rig not need running back stays

I couldn't believe that runners weren't required on the Westsail so I did a search. Seems like all the masts had the tangs and the rigging was an (recommended) option.

Here's a link:
http://www.sv-galena.com/WOM/images/...tay_Option.jpg

Some other cutter rigged boats have permanent stays that work as the runners; Compac, Bayfield. Not sure how they get away with it when they are anchored so close to the aft lower chainplates, but they seem to work. We just swapped our SS wires out to Dyneema lines with a splice to low stretch line that runs to the windward sheet winch.
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Old 02-27-2013
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Re: Why does this rig not need running back stays

If the spars are short or stiff enuf, you don't necessarily need runners or checkstays. Still not a bad idea if your staysail is as far above the spreaders & below the masthead as the W32's. If the mast doesn't pump, or flex out of column, tho, you should be okay. Westsails tend to have high rig loading due to their displacement. OTOH, they have relatively low SA/D overall, and that SA is split between several sails. Looks like the basic staysail is only 150 sqft. Probably not enuf to work that phone pole of a mast.

Our Ballad has a similar halyard exit from the mast, from which a staysail (150sqft) or storm jib (50sqft) can be flown. No babystay -- all the Ballad's inner sails are set flying (including a masthead spinnaker staysail @ 204sqft, which must be an interesting hoist). No provision for runners or checkstays, tho some owners have added them. Our current plan is to keep the solent staysail as a sort of G3, and fly the storm jib on the spi pole topping lift -- which exits just above the spreaders and can be Vectran for the purpose. We'll just hope the lower aft shroud is enuf to prevent pumping. Angle is not ideal, but it is probably okay -- the Selden spars on this boat are ridiculously oversized. Another thought we had: you could thru-bolt your lazy jack tangs, replace the Dacron line with Dyneema, and have the (overlength) lazy jacks serve double-duty as runners. That's if you want your staysail to attach higher on the mast. Hi-tech lines open up lots of possibilities.
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Re: Why does this rig not need running back stays

I've seen quite a few Westsail 32s and I don't believe I've seen one with running back stays. Many of those boats have been to Europe and back. They're usually not standard on masthead rigged sailboats. Usually they're seen on tall fractional rigged boats.

Having said that, JRD22 sure has some good evidence that Westsail had them in mind when they designed the boat. The Westsail is a heavy seas boat, slow but reliable. I doubt if you'll really need them, but on a boat Murphy and his law are always on steroids.
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Old 02-28-2013
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Re: Why does this rig not need running back stays

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd22 View Post
I couldn't believe that runners weren't required on the Westsail so I did a search. Seems like all the masts had the tangs and the rigging was an (recommended) option.

Here's a link:
http://www.sv-galena.com/WOM/images/...tay_Option.jpg

Some other cutter rigged boats have permanent stays that work as the runners; Compac, Bayfield. Not sure how they get away with it when they are anchored so close to the aft lower chainplates, but they seem to work. We just swapped our SS wires out to Dyneema lines with a splice to low stretch line that runs to the windward sheet winch.
Great find,
Regards
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Re: Why does this rig not need running back stays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmcgov View Post
If the spars are short or stiff enuf, you don't necessarily need runners or checkstays. Still not a bad idea if your staysail is as far above the spreaders & below the masthead as the W32's. If the mast doesn't pump, or flex out of column, tho, you should be okay. Westsails tend to have high rig loading due to their displacement. OTOH, they have relatively low SA/D overall, and that SA is split between several sails. Looks like the basic staysail is only 150 sqft. Probably not enuf to work that phone pole of a mast.

Our Ballad has a similar halyard exit from the mast, from which a staysail (150sqft) or storm jib (50sqft) can be flown. No babystay -- all the Ballad's inner sails are set flying (including a masthead spinnaker staysail @ 204sqft, which must be an interesting hoist). No provision for runners or checkstays, tho some owners have added them. Our current plan is to keep the solent staysail as a sort of G3, and fly the storm jib on the spi pole topping lift -- which exits just above the spreaders and can be Vectran for the purpose. We'll just hope the lower aft shroud is enuf to prevent pumping. Angle is not ideal, but it is probably okay -- the Selden spars on this boat are ridiculously oversized. Another thought we had: you could thru-bolt your lazy jack tangs, replace the Dacron line with Dyneema, and have the (overlength) lazy jacks serve double-duty as runners. That's if you want your staysail to attach higher on the mast. Hi-tech lines open up lots of possibilities.
You have some great ideas. I also have lazy jacks and was thinking through bolt at that location and change them to also serve as running back stays.

I also have a spi pole topping lift haylard that exists just above spreaders. Was thinking of using that as a inner foresaty, but not sure if the sheeve could handle all the forces involved.

Regards
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Re: Why does this rig not need running back stays

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
You have some great ideas. I also have lazy jacks and was thinking through bolt at that location and change them to also serve as running back stays.

I also have a spi pole topping lift haylard that exists just above spreaders. Was thinking of using that as a inner foresaty, but not sure if the sheeve could handle all the forces involved.

Regards
Our boom is real short, so the lazy jacks are a simple triangle with one running block. If you had a biener on the back padeye & a shackled turning block on the forward padeye (maybe with a becket), all you'd have to do is reef the main, get it secured, and walk the two ends of the lazy jacks over to the toe rail. Clip, clip, winch. You'd either need a long tail on your lazy jacks or a soft eyesplice for adding more rope. Dyneema is so light and packs so small, might be easiest to just make it long. Lots of people seem to store their lazys on the toerail anyhow.

As for the topping lift being strong enuf -- most seem to use the same off-the-shelf exit boxes as the genoa halyard. Easy & super-cheap to upgrade, if it looks too small:

Garhauer Marine Hardware -5832030

This is the tentative sailplan for our Ballad:

revsailplan

The 150% G1 gets replaced by a nylon drifter of slightly less area, while a full-hoist 135% becomes our working headsail (furler). The spinnaker staysail (which is in good shape, never used) we will ride for awhile as the G3-4; need to beef up the foredeck padeye if it is to become a heavy air sail. The storm jib moves down to the pole topping lift. That takes our inventory from nine sails down to six, one of which lives on a furler & two that pack small. These old IOR warhorses were long on jib counts & short on stowage.
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Last edited by bobmcgov; 02-28-2013 at 01:13 PM.
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Re: Why does this rig not need running back stays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmcgov View Post
fly the storm jib on the spi pole topping lift -- which exits just above the spreaders and can be Vectran for the purpose.
So for the storm jib to you hank it on to the spi pole topping lift that is rigged like an inner forestay?
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Re: Why does this rig not need running back stays

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
So for the storm jib to you hank it on to the spi pole topping lift that is rigged like an inner forestay?
Nope -- stormy flies on its own luff. That's how all the inner headsails are done on the Albin. Storm jib and 100% staysail were designed to hoist on a halyard exiting the mast about 3' above the spreaders; we're just moving it down a bit, to shorten the hoist & put the force closer to the inner stays. The storm jib and spi staysail currently have wire luffs; those will be replaced with Amsteel, probably doubled in the luff pocket. So we'll use the spare genoa halyard for the G3 (rather than futzing with a removable solent stay); the pole topping lift will fly the storm jib right out of the bag.

Probably. I should mention, we haven't actually sailed the boat yet & won't have a chance until the refit is complete. So it's all rather ... theoretical at this point. If anyone has suggestions, they are welcome.
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Re: Why does this rig not need running back stays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmcgov View Post
Nope -- stormy flies on its own luff. That's how all the inner headsails are done on the Albin. Storm jib and 100% staysail were designed to hoist on a halyard exiting the mast about 3' above the spreaders; we're just moving it down a bit, to shorten the hoist & put the force closer to the inner stays. The storm jib and spi staysail currently have wire luffs; those will be replaced with Amsteel, probably doubled in the luff pocket. So we'll use the spare genoa halyard for the G3 (rather than futzing with a removable solent stay); the pole topping lift will fly the storm jib right out of the bag.

Probably. I should mention, we haven't actually sailed the boat yet & won't have a chance until the refit is complete. So it's all rather ... theoretical at this point. If anyone has suggestions, they are welcome.
I am curious how this will work out. Sure makes things a lot easier. The thing I wonder about is how the boat will point. I understand you need good forestay tension to point well. Having no stay to hank on (as it is built into sail), does that mean you then need significant haylard tension to get good pointing ability? And in a real blow, will the sail shape be poor?
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