Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22? - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 03-18-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Orleans Louisiana
Posts: 2,077
Thanks: 6
Thanked 55 Times in 52 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Stumble is on a distinguished road
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Mor,

Messing with a rudder is typically a bad idea without a lot of engineering behind it. Besides the foil shape aspect, you also have to deal with balance (both CE on the boat, and a balanced rudder), attachment issues, hull strength issues, ect.

Typically a deeper, thinner, narrow foil will be best, but there are a lot of trade off decisions that need to be made. For instance a thinner foil is faster, but more prone to stalling, while a narrower rudder has less wetted surface, but has less bite.
__________________
Greg Rubin
Attorney
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 03-19-2013
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: western catskills
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
geronimotwo is on a distinguished road
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

^^^ this. your rudder has been designed such that the center of effort is placed properly, making it larger or smaller will change the overall charecteristics of your boats handling (not just while turning). also, as mentioned before, the length of the keel, and hull shape will have a great impact on the turning radius, even if the rudders are placed and shaped identically.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 03-19-2013
deniseO30's Avatar
1934 Chickering
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bristol pa
Posts: 6,348
Thanks: 52
Thanked 101 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 10
deniseO30 will become famous soon enough deniseO30 will become famous soon enough
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Keeping up with others can be expensive. Sell the Morgan and get a T22 if your that unhappy! Then they will get a bigger boat.. and then you will be unhappy again...
__________________
Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club. New Website!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My boat is for sale.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 03-19-2013
SchockT's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: North Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,426
Thanks: 1
Thanked 27 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 3
SchockT is on a distinguished road
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

What I mean when I say "turning fast isn't the fastest way to turn" is that maintaining your boatspeed is more important than changing course quickly. Putting the helm hard over when you tack can really put the "brakes" on, and you scrub a lot of speed. The result is that you come out of the tack low and slow. Making a wider, smoother turn may help you to maintain your speed, and as a result you will be up to full speed and full point sooner on your new tack. Every boat is different, and some boats can be "thrown" around more than others. You are better off figuring out what works for your boat rather than worrying about turning as fast as your competitors.

On your rudder, templating and fairing can make a big difference, and won't get you in trouble with handicapping like replacing or modifying a rudder would. Templating is when you find the foil profile for your rudder, and cut pieces of thin plastic or wood in your desired foil shape. You can then place the templates at various points down each side of the rudder to show you where you need to add or remove fairing compound to achieve the correct foil shape. That can make a big difference to the efficiency of your rudder.
msmith10 likes this.
__________________
1979 Santana 30 Tall Rig
Hull#101
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 03-19-2013
Barquito's Avatar
Barquito
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,077
Thanks: 0
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 8
Barquito is on a distinguished road
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Quote:
What I mean when I say "turning fast isn't the fastest way to turn" is that maintaining your boatspeed is more important than changing course quickly. Putting the helm hard over when you tack can really put the "brakes" on, and you scrub a lot of speed. The result is that you come out of the tack low and slow. Making a wider, smoother turn may help you to maintain your speed, and as a result you will be up to full speed and full point sooner on your new tack. Every boat is different, and some boats can be "thrown" around more than others. You are better off figuring out what works for your boat rather than worrying about turning as fast as your competitors.
Plus, when you are doing a controlled, gracefull tack, you are spending more time heading directly toward your destination as you tack.
__________________
Bristol 27
Cirque
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 03-19-2013
fallard's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mystic
Posts: 901
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 6
fallard is on a distinguished road
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mor22 View Post
SchocktT- could you explain the "turning faster is not necessarily the fastest way to turn"

I am looking at making the rudder more of a foil shape to improve handling. If anyone has any favorite web information links for a project like this, please share.

Thanks
I didn't see a response to your question about "turning faster". One answer is that turning your rudder too fast can increase the angle of attack of your rudder and stall it, just like an airplane wing. If your keel arrangement does not have the hydrodynamic "lift" to allow a quick turn, you may be stalling your rudder in your haste to turn. That can be counterproductive if you not only reduce the hydrodynamic "lift" of the rudder, but also turn it into a brake. SchockT was implying that you might actually slow your turn rate by turning your rudder hard over and stalling it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 03-19-2013
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 15
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Mor22 is on a distinguished road
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Aha. Thanks for these explanations of "turning". We found our Morgan reasonable through turns but were less happy after sailing the Tanzer, thinking that there was something more we should be able to do with our boat. We didn't realize (being newer sailors) that there would be an optimum turn rate for any given boat because of the keel shape and rudder stall angle, but it makes sense now.

Schockt- thanks for the info about templating and fairing. This is more in line with what we might explore for our rudder. I will get some pics of our rudder and see what the forum members think of the 41year old design. (I know the Tanzer 22 group were very happy when a new improved rudder was produced for their boat).

We don't race but you know how it is when two sailboats are going in the same direction....................
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Faster than a Cal 20 rlltrash Boat Review and Purchase Forum 11 03-17-2013 03:38 PM
How to fly spinnaker faster mikehoyt Racing 21 06-28-2007 03:17 AM
Which tack is faster? RayMetz100 Learning to Sail 5 12-11-2006 06:22 PM
Faster than the Wind Dan Dickison Seamanship Articles 0 10-20-2000 09:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:57 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.