Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!! - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree12Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 05-09-2013
zz4gta's Avatar
I don't discuss my member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 2,446
Thanks: 0
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 8
zz4gta is on a distinguished road
Re: Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!

So you feel good about sending someone up the rig on a 12 year old halyard? Skied or not, it's 12 years old and high dynamic loads take their toll.

If you have a 42 footer, I wouldn't complain about the cost of halyards. 10 years is a good run, I'm just suggesting replacement.
knothead, Sabreman and katsailor like this.
__________________
Merit 25 # 764 "Audrey"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 05-09-2013
katsailor's Avatar
Fresh water refugee
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Southport, NC
Posts: 160
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 2
katsailor is on a distinguished road
Re: Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
So you feel good about sending someone up the rig on a 12 year old halyard? Skied or not, it's 12 years old and high dynamic loads take their toll.

If you have a 42 footer, I wouldn't complain about the cost of halyards. 10 years is a good run, I'm just suggesting replacement.

Good point; I have been expressly forbidden to climb my masts as the halyards are shot and the condition of the masthead blocks is unknown. I was going to install new halyards prior to any aerial activities but just got the look.

The admiral has informed me that we will be pulling the masts as part of the refurb process.

I do like the idea of using a messenger line and storing the halyard in the mast but it won't work in my application since my halyards and blocks are external.
__________________
Experience teaches us things we would rather not know.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
S/V Shakti '81 Offshore Cat Ketch 33'

Last edited by katsailor; 05-09-2013 at 04:44 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 05-09-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,192
Thanks: 50
Thanked 37 Times in 36 Posts
Rep Power: 14
knothead has a spectacular aura about knothead has a spectacular aura about knothead has a spectacular aura about
Re: Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by katsailor View Post
Good point; I have been expressly forbidden to climb my masts as the halyards are shot and the condition of the masthead blocks is unknown. I was going to install new halyards prior to any aerial activities but just got the look.

The admiral has informed me that we will be pulling the masts as part of the refurb process.

I do like the idea of using a messenger line and storing the halyard in the mast but it won't work in my application since my halyards and blocks are external.
If one wants to replace their halyards with messengers when they aren't in use, then the messenger should be attached (sewn) to the open end of the halyard and the halyard is then lowered completely where it can be stowed in a bag at the mast keeping the messengers attached or below if you want to separate them. This works for internal or external halyards.
It makes little sense to me to attach the messenger to the shackle and simply sky the halyard leaving the splice or knot exposed to the elements.

One caution; If using a very small diameter messenger, be sure to keep it under tension throughout the entire process or else the messenger may jump the sheave and become jammed between the sheave and cheek.
mitiempo and johnnyquest37 like this.

Last edited by knothead; 05-09-2013 at 05:44 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 05-10-2013
svHyLyte's Avatar
Old as Dirt!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa Bay Area
Posts: 2,821
Thanks: 15
Thanked 114 Times in 108 Posts
Rep Power: 7
svHyLyte is on a distinguished road
Re: Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by knothead View Post
If one wants to replace their halyards with messengers when they aren't in use, then the messenger should be attached (sewn) to the open end of the halyard and the halyard is then lowered completely where it can be stowed in a bag at the mast keeping the messengers attached or below if you want to separate them. This works for internal or external halyards.
It makes little sense to me to attach the messenger to the shackle and simply sky the halyard leaving the splice or knot exposed to the elements.

One caution; If using a very small diameter messenger, be sure to keep it under tension throughout the entire process or else the messenger may jump the sheave and become jammed between the sheave and cheek.
Knothead--You must have missed the notation that the exposed ends of the halyards are wrapped with Teflon Tape to guard against chafe on the sheave box edges and block UV. We've been following the convention of withdrawing unused halyards/lifts into the mast on our boats since the mid-60's (a trick we learned from an old, accomplished and much envied racer) and have never had a halyard/lift fail from other than chafe on the sides of a sheave box (no matter how industriously we smooth and polish the cheeks of the boxes). The objective is to get them out of the way/wind and protected until they are needed but to be able to put them into service quickly when needed. I don't want to be screwing around trying to reeve a halyard lead in the middle of the night in a heavy seaway when I can just pull a lazy halyard/lift down, snap it in place and be back in business.

I am in communication with the engineers at NE Ropes who assure me that the non-load bearing polyester cover quite adequately protects the load bearing Technora/Dyneema SK-75 core. Moreover, Dyneema is a highly crystalline UHMWPE fibre relatively immune to UV degredation hence its use in space science applications where UV exposure is not mitigated by an Ozone layer as we are here on mother earth. For the sake of comparison, we have uncovered 1/4" SK-75 runners that at are now 10 years old (that replaced similar 16 year old runners) with no failures despite constant solar exposure and not infrequent cyclical loading in the 2000 to 4000 lb range. The difference between these and our halyard that failed is the fact that the ends were spliced around thimbles.

While the post-mortum on our failed splice has not been completed, I suspect the failure arose because I allowed a supposedly knowledgeable rigger to make a splice without a thimble when I knew better. A tight eye splice around a shackle bale with high modulus fibers--no stretch--results in only the fibers on the outside of the curve of the eye being loaded and so bearing all of the load in the splice. These eventually fail with the load being transferred to the next outermost layer of fiber. The cycle repeats until the entire eye has failed.

In any case, once we have reeved a messenger, we shall end for end the line and reattach the halyard, around a thinble, but secured with a Buntline hitch rather than a splice and shall thereafter chop of a foot or so every few years and remake the hitch. Friends of ours now in Trinidad inform me they have applied the foregoing methodology with their, now, 20 year old Dyneema French issue halyards and have suffered no failures thus far.

And, we shall continue withdrawing our unused halyards and lifts into the mast as a matter of course. Different ships, different long splices eh?

FWIW...
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 05-10-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,192
Thanks: 50
Thanked 37 Times in 36 Posts
Rep Power: 14
knothead has a spectacular aura about knothead has a spectacular aura about knothead has a spectacular aura about
Re: Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Knothead--You must have missed the notation that the exposed ends of the halyards are wrapped with Teflon Tape to guard against chafe on the sheave box edges and block UV. We've been following the convention of withdrawing unused halyards/lifts into the mast on our boats since the mid-60's (a trick we learned from an old, accomplished and much envied racer) and have never had a halyard/lift fail from other than chafe on the sides of a sheave box (no matter how industriously we smooth and polish the cheeks of the boxes). The objective is to get them out of the way/wind and protected until they are needed but to be able to put them into service quickly when needed. I don't want to be screwing around trying to reeve a halyard lead in the middle of the night in a heavy seaway when I can just pull a lazy halyard/lift down, snap it in place and be back in business.

I am in communication with the engineers at NE Ropes who assure me that the non-load bearing polyester cover quite adequately protects the load bearing Technora/Dyneema SK-75 core. Moreover, Dyneema is a highly crystalline UHMWPE fibre relatively immune to UV degredation hence its use in space science applications where UV exposure is not mitigated by an Ozone layer as we are here on mother earth. For the sake of comparison, we have uncovered 1/4" SK-75 runners that at are now 10 years old (that replaced similar 16 year old runners) with no failures despite constant solar exposure and not infrequent cyclical loading in the 2000 to 4000 lb range. The difference between these and our halyard that failed is the fact that the ends were spliced around thimbles.

While the post-mortum on our failed splice has not been completed, I suspect the failure arose because I allowed a supposedly knowledgeable rigger to make a splice without a thimble when I knew better. A tight eye splice around a shackle bale with high modulus fibers--no stretch--results in only the fibers on the outside of the curve of the eye being loaded and so bearing all of the load in the splice. These eventually fail with the load being transferred to the next outermost layer of fiber. The cycle repeats until the entire eye has failed.

In any case, once we have reeved a messenger, we shall end for end the line and reattach the halyard, around a thinble, but secured with a Buntline hitch rather than a splice and shall thereafter chop of a foot or so every few years and remake the hitch. Friends of ours now in Trinidad inform me they have applied the foregoing methodology with their, now, 20 year old Dyneema French issue halyards and have suffered no failures thus far.

And, we shall continue withdrawing our unused halyards and lifts into the mast as a matter of course. Different ships, different long splices eh?

FWIW...
I didn't miss the fact that you taped the splice. Nor did I suggest that your method was the cause of your halyard failing. I believe that you are probably right in that the splice would have lasted longer had it been made around a thimble. Primarily because users of high tech halyards tend to crank them up so hard.
It just makes more sense to me however, if you really want to extend the life of your halyards, to pull them and stow them when not in use. The only way to do that is to attach the messenger to the open end. Especially on halyards that are led back to the cockpit.
And I certainly would expect that any competent sailor would re-reeve his halyards before ever leaving the dock. Not wait until the middle of the night in a heavy seaway. That would be silly.

My business partner Andrew, you may know him if you've been racing in this area for any length of time, does not use thimbles on his high tech splices. He does however replace them every few years. But then again, he replaces his rod standing rigging every five years when racing. He was rather amused at the idea that you were surprised that a ten year old t-900 halyard would fail.
I on the other hand, am still using the external Sta-Set halyards that I installed over twenty years ago, sailed from CA to FL with and which have been sitting in the Florida sun since '93. So I sympathize with you. However, I hardly ever put a handle in a winch on my boat so I don't really stress my lines much.
You racers are a different breed. You use your boats harder and your stuff wears out much quicker. Just the facts of life.
Faster and Sabreman like this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 05-12-2013
svHyLyte's Avatar
Old as Dirt!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa Bay Area
Posts: 2,821
Thanks: 15
Thanked 114 Times in 108 Posts
Rep Power: 7
svHyLyte is on a distinguished road
Re: Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Not having recovered the Halyard yet, I do not know the exact failure mode. However, considering there are several thousand miles on the halyard in some pretty rough conditions at times, and that I use overlong splice lengths, and that I sew up and parcel the throats of my eye splices, I doubt that the splice pulled out. I suspect that the line parted in the eye but, in any case, I shall report on my findings. FWIW, a knot in T-900 doesn't approach the strength of a splice (at least according to NERopes).
On Friday our current rigger extracted and re-reeved our main halyard after chopping off the damaged end and blown splice. The autopsy of the failed splice is now complete with photos of the dissected dead end following (I hope). The splice failed at the throat (as I had suspected). The "feathering" and discoloration of the outer most core strands compared with the clean ends of the ruptured inner core strands indicate the failure to have been progressive across the splice over some time, from outside to inside, as I had theorized. More diligent inspection of the splice on my part would have revealed the splice was failing but I was derelict with that tho' shall certainly not be again. A stress test of a length of the 10 year "old" halyard, just inboard of the failed splice, in the mechanics of materials lab at the local technical school Saturday morning by one of our neighbors, who is a professor there, indicated a rupture load of about 15000 lbs or roughly 4000 lbs above the rated strength of the line (10mm--11000 lbs) on the supposedly old, worn out, sun burned halyard. With that, Saturday afternoon I whipped the end of the halyard and connected it to the headboard shackle with a Buntline hitch. We took the yacht out and sailed her out to Egmont Key and back it 18 - 20 knots on an close reach, over sheeting the main all the way, and the yacht performed well (tho' that Buntline hitch will likely have to be cut off at some point in the future as there is probably no way of ever loosening it!).

Our current rigger, who was a close friend of our prior rigger who has since passed away agrees with him that a thimble is not needed with the new high tech lines. But. The proper way to use such splices is to make them rather longer than one would normally and to pass the entire eye through the shackle bail and loop it up and over the shackle so that both "legs" of the splice are carrying load as in a Cowhitch. I did that with our runners but not with our halyards. So. My next project is to chop the ends off our other halyards wherever I/we see feathering of the covers in the line, re-whip the lines and reconnect them with Buntline hitches. By end-for-ending the lines, I can probably get another 10 years out of them, assuming I live than much longer.

Hopefully, others can/will profit by my own misadventure. Snaps follow (fingers crossed!) FWIW...
Attached Thumbnails
Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!-dscn0361.jpg   Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!-dscn0362.jpg  
Faster and tommays like this.
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."

Last edited by svHyLyte; 05-13-2013 at 08:50 AM. Reason: Correct typo; add addenda
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 05-12-2013
mbetter's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 73
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 5
mbetter is on a distinguished road
Re: Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
(tho' that Buntline hitch will likely have to be cut off at some point in the future as there is probably no way of ever loosening it!).
You should have slipped it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 05-13-2013
svHyLyte's Avatar
Old as Dirt!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa Bay Area
Posts: 2,821
Thanks: 15
Thanked 114 Times in 108 Posts
Rep Power: 7
svHyLyte is on a distinguished road
Re: Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbetter View Post
You should have slipped it.
In theory it is, as a practical matter I suspect it will not slip short of being hauled on by a bulldozer given the look of the knot after one hard but not exceptionally demanding use.

FWIW...
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 05-13-2013
pdqaltair's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Posts: 2,264
Thanks: 1
Thanked 36 Times in 36 Posts
Rep Power: 7
pdqaltair is on a distinguished road
Re: Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!

Use a knot. Retie every few years, moving all chafe points in the process. Easy.
Faster likes this.
__________________
(when asked how he reached the starting holds on a difficult rock climbing problem that clearly favored taller climbers - he was perhaps 5'5")

"Well, I just climb up to them."

by Joe Brown, English rock climber




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 05-13-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 318
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
Sanduskysailor is on a distinguished road
Re: Mind Your Hi-Tech Splices!!!

Ever thought about replacing your T-900 with 10MM Yale Crystalyne. 130 ft halyard at $1.95/foot is $253.50 plus splice I'd definitely use thimbles with the vectran core of Crystalyne. Minimal creep compared to T-900 with same breaking strength. Sailed a few Macs on a First 42. They are beasts going uphill in a blow.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Limited only by your mind Stillraining General Discussion (sailing related) 3 09-04-2009 02:58 PM
Halyard splices or not? victoria28 Gear & Maintenance 6 06-01-2009 10:22 PM
lost my mind bome General Discussion (sailing related) 1 09-30-2006 04:04 PM
eye splices --Help! Rickm505 Gear & Maintenance 22 04-11-2006 08:17 PM
chain to rode splices cortez Gear & Maintenance 2 08-06-2003 12:39 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:06 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.