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  #51  
Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Help pinpointing a leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by hillenme View Post
$3,500 sound like a reasonable estimate for this? I'm sure it's 10x the actual cost of some 5200 and labor to drop the keel, torque the bolts and clean up the joint when finished, but backs against the wall, I don't have the time or equipment to figure this one out on my own. This is Chicago where everything is more expensive as well.
Seems like a lot to me. Ask Sailnet member CharlieCobra - he should know the answer.

Why can't you have it blocked, loosen the bolts yourself, have them raise the boat a little with the keel supported, re-block, work the seam between keel and bolt to ensure it separates, raise the boat again to separate from the keel and reblock, work on the joint to create a good matching seal between keel and boat, add 5200, re-bed, tighten all bolts, set and relaunch?

Or, here is a novel idea: have boat blocked an extra foot high, with some kind of removable blocking or jacked blocking under the keel, loosen the bolts and work the seal between keel and hull, drop the keel in place with side supports, work the keel-hull joint, then have the boat dropped down to the dropped keel level, or if you are able, jack the keel back up into the boat.

Last edited by jameswilson29; 06-11-2013 at 02:22 PM.
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  #52  
Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Help pinpointing a leak

What does the $3500 entail? If its truly just 3-4 hours of work, and most of it is labor, then no, $3500 isn't. By contrast, if they are cutting everything free, ripping out all of the the old fiberglass, finding the source of the water intrusion, and rebuilding any damage caused by the water, then $3500 starts to sound more realistic. Assuming $100/hour and $1000 worth of parts, equipment, etc., you're looking at 25 hours worth of work (or about 3 working days worth of work, including prep and clean-up). Depending on what they have to do, 3 days isn't that unreasonable.
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  #53  
Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Help pinpointing a leak

The estimate so far is just for rebedding the keel. As I mentioned earlier I'm sure this isn't the end of the story - but we can't see anything else until the keel is dropped. There was no obvious hull damage anywhere else that would explain the leak.

I work 50+ hours a week and with a long drive to the yard doing all or even part of this on my own is not an option. The season is short and I want to be back in the water as soon as possible. We're planning some lake crossings and participating in some overnight races, so I don't want to be wondering if my first attempt at such a large project went well when we are 40 miles offshore in nasty weather.

I'm still perplexed as to how this was apparently unnoticeable to the PO or the yard when he last hauled it 2 years ago. He was ready to launch and race the Mac in it before purchasing his new boat in the spring on more or less a whim - so I don't think he was hiding anything.

Ugh...

Luckily I know a lot of other boat owners I can jump on with anytime, so getting out for a sail won't be difficult.
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Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Help pinpointing a leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Seems like a lot to me. Ask Sailnet member CharlieCobra - he should know the answer.

Why can't you have it blocked, loosen the bolts yourself, have them raise the boat a little with the keel supported, re-block, work the seam between keel and bolt to ensure it separates, raise the boat again to separate from the keel and reblock, work on the joint to create a good matching seal between keel and boat, add 5200, re-bed, tighten all bolts, set and relaunch?

Or, here is a novel idea: have boat blocked an extra foot high, with some kind of removable blocking or jacked blocking under the keel, loosen the bolts and work the seal between keel and hull, drop the keel in place with side supports, work the keel-hull joint, then have the boat dropped down to the dropped keel level, or if you are able, jack the keel back up into the boat.
I wouldn't cobble the repair like this. It goes to your hull integrity. Its not like a patch topsides. Do you want to worry forever that this didn't really fix the problem?

As Hellosailor and others have mentioned the leaking of 3 gallons of water in a short time is no small leak. The is an issue between the keel and the bottom of the boat.

The only way to fix it CORRECTLY is not to cement it closed with 5200 and drop the keel back in place and tighten the bolts. You need to get the keel clear of the bottom and take a good look at what is actually leaking here. Fix that. Only then will you have a solid structure to hold the keel onto the hull with any degree of certainty.

$3500 in parts and labor for the simplest of fixes seems reasonable as Jimgo said. I am sure they will use up 16 hours of labor at least. be prepared though that they may find something major to repair once the keel is off.

Dave
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  #55  
Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Help pinpointing a leak

I'm not going to say the yard did anything wrong launching your boat; because you were not there when it was launched. However; if I were the boat owner and the yard launched my boat without my permission or presence I'd be pissed. Maybe they do things differently in areas where you must haul during the winter; but I'd at least want a phone call and an ETA for launch on the day it comes up in the schedule.

How are they supposed to know if the boat is taking on water unless someone spends some time aboard immediately after it's launched? How are you supposed to know if they did anything to damage the keel while moving the boat?

You might consider talking to your insurance company; find out if they would cover your losses if the bolts are not failing due to corrosion or any other maintenance issue. If you remove the nut over that bolt that has 10 washers under it; you might find a threaded rod welded to the original bolt with failing threads. That would point towards failing keel bolts at the keel/hull joint.

On the issue of the location of the leak (inside the stringer); it should be a sealed bilge section there. There should be no holes to the keel/hull joint inside the stringer to allow water in even if the keel/hull joint has a gap. I suspect that since the core is disintegrating inside the stringer; bilge water got in there and was not removed before. Then it froze and expanded causing a crack to the bottom of the keel stub.

If the keel was 'alarmingly loose' on haul out; what was it's condition when they launched it? What was it's condition when it was hauled 18 months ago? You could not have caused this sort of problem by sailing it a few times (even if you sailed it hard). I suspect that the owner knew there were problems with the keel bolts; tried 3 times in the fall to sell it (holding off during the regular season so it would not be noticed for 8 months); and unfortunately you were the person who bought his problem.

I'm really surprised your surveyor did not mention the stacked washers on the keel bolt. That should be a dead giveaway that something is not right with the keel. If he is a SAMS or NAMS accredited surveyor; there is insurance they carry to cover them if they miss something.

You need to get the keel dropped and have the stub checked by a surveyor who knows naval architecture and can recommend a way of repairing the boat.

Last edited by KeelHaulin; 06-11-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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  #56  
Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Help pinpointing a leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
I'm not going to say the yard did anything wrong launching your boat; because you were not there when it was launched. However; if I were the boat owner and the yard launched me without my permission or presence I'd be pissed. Maybe they do things differently in areas where you must haul during the winter; but I'd at least want a phone call and an ETA for launch on the day it comes up in the schedule.

How are they supposed to know if the boat is taking on water unless someone spends some time aboard immediately after it's launched? How are you supposed to know if they did anything to damage the keel while moving the boat?

You might consider talking to your insurance company; find out if they would cover your losses if the bolts are not failing due to corrosion or any other maintenance issue. If you remove the nut over that bolt that has 10 washers under it; you might find a threaded rod welded to the original bolt with failing threads. That would point towards failing keel bolts at the keel/hull joint.

On the issue of the location of the leak (inside the stringer); it should be a sealed bilge section there. There should be no holes to the keel/hull joint inside the stringer to allow water in even if the keel/hull joint has a gap. I suspect that since the core is disintegrating inside the stringer; bilge water got in there and was not removed before. Then it froze and expanded causing a crack to the bottom of the keel stub.

If the keel was 'alarmingly loose' on haul out; what was it's condition when they launched it? What was it's condition when it was hauled 18 months ago? You could not have caused this sort of problem by sailing it a few times (even if you sailed it hard). I suspect that the owner knew there were problems with the keel bolts; tried 3 times in the fall to sell it (holding off during the regular season so it would not be noticed for 8 months); and unfortunately you were the person who bought his problem.

I'm really surprised your surveyor did not mention the stacked washers on the keel bolt. That should be a dead giveaway that something is not right with the keel. If he is a SAMS or NAMS accredited surveyor; there is insurance they carry to cover them if they miss something.
All great points. Especially the insurance and surveyor one.

I think the holes the OP is referring to are the limber holes in the cross pieces of the frame in the bilge. I have the exact same boat as he does (C&C35 MKIII). Whether these are actually called structural stringers, I am not sure ( I think they are). This frame is what the floor is screwed into. The limber holes allow the water in the boat to drain into the bilge.
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  #57  
Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Help pinpointing a leak

I'd say yes that they are structural; there is lots of load on the keel stub due to the static weight of the keel; and when the boat heels The hull would want to deform in the bilge without the cross pieces. It looks like C&C made them large thin box sections in newer hulls to minimize weight while maintaining rigidity. My older C&C 41 does not have this construction method; the stringers are glassed over wood; and only ~2" wide. It seems to me that the foam used to core the box section is breaking down due to bilge water getting in. While the foam is not structural, any water that fills the void will be problematic if it freezes. I'd consider re-filling the void with expanding foam and then glassing in the limber holes so water can't get in from the surrounding bilge. But that's not a proper fix for the OP if there is a crack to the exterior. The crack needs to be repaired first.
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Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Help pinpointing a leak

I also have a 35/3. The keelbolt in the photo is not original - its too clean and shiny. It also looks taller than the original. Is there some sort of sleeve under the washer? Its possible someone already tried to rebed the keel and did a lousy job.
Technically, the supports that run laterally are "floors". Stringers run fore and aft.
If it were a wood boat, I'd say use the sawdust trick - put lots of sawdust in the water and let it get sucked into the source of the leak. Doesn't fix it, but stops the water.
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  #59  
Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Help pinpointing a leak

I've discussed this mystery at length with my marine grade advanced composite Magic8Ball. And the 8Ball said to me, when in doubt, apply Occam's Razor and remember, the razor is free but you've got to buy the blades.

The PO, like all PO's, treasured the boat and concealed nothing.

The surveyor, like all surveyors, was a highly experienced professional who never drinks on the job or within twentyfour hours before doing a survey, and he missed nothing.

There was nothing wrong with the boat when you bought it or had it surveyed.

But when it was being hoisted in the Travel Lift, or set back down again, a gravitational anomaly bounced it on the keel and that's caused things to "come oft agley" creating the leak.

Seems like the simplest explanation to me, it just wasn't obvious until the 8Ball expanded my conciousness.

Meanwhile, what has to be done, has to be done.
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  #60  
Old 06-11-2013
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Re: Help pinpointing a leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
I'm not going to say the yard did anything wrong launching your boat; because you were not there when it was launched. However; if I were the boat owner and the yard launched my boat without my permission or presence I'd be pissed. Maybe they do things differently in areas where you must haul during the winter; but I'd at least want a phone call and an ETA for launch on the day it comes up in the schedule.

How are they supposed to know if the boat is taking on water unless someone spends some time aboard immediately after it's launched? How are you supposed to know if they did anything to damage the keel while moving the boat?

You might consider talking to your insurance company; find out if they would cover your losses if the bolts are not failing due to corrosion or any other maintenance issue. If you remove the nut over that bolt that has 10 washers under it; you might find a threaded rod welded to the original bolt with failing threads. That would point towards failing keel bolts at the keel/hull joint.

On the issue of the location of the leak (inside the stringer); it should be a sealed bilge section there. There should be no holes to the keel/hull joint inside the stringer to allow water in even if the keel/hull joint has a gap. I suspect that since the core is disintegrating inside the stringer; bilge water got in there and was not removed before. Then it froze and expanded causing a crack to the bottom of the keel stub.

If the keel was 'alarmingly loose' on haul out; what was it's condition when they launched it? What was it's condition when it was hauled 18 months ago? You could not have caused this sort of problem by sailing it a few times (even if you sailed it hard). I suspect that the owner knew there were problems with the keel bolts; tried 3 times in the fall to sell it (holding off during the regular season so it would not be noticed for 8 months); and unfortunately you were the person who bought his problem.

I'm really surprised your surveyor did not mention the stacked washers on the keel bolt. That should be a dead giveaway that something is not right with the keel. If he is a SAMS or NAMS accredited surveyor; there is insurance they carry to cover them if they miss something.

You need to get the keel dropped and have the stub checked by a surveyor who knows naval architecture and can recommend a way of repairing the boat.
This yard launches probably 800 to 1000 boats a season and they want to go in the first two weeks of May, so there isn't much personal attention. There is a twenty four hour "float test" - in other words they launch at least 24 hours before your departure date. Apparently, I now know this must mean if it doesn't sink in 24 hours they assume it is good to go. The mast step was completed after it was launched and we had a TON of rain that day so I was not that surprised to find a large amount of water in the bilge as I had no doubt it was raining into the boat as they were working on this. The next day after our delivery it was apparent to me we had a problem.

I called the surveyor and mentioned the location and volume of the leak and he told me "boats leak" deal with it in the fall. Clearly unsound advice, which I obviously did not follow. Surprisingly his credentials were impeccable (Designed, Constructed and Operated a Research Submarine; Served 36 years in the United States Navy retired Captain of M.O.T.U-2 the Navy's inspection team for Submarines and Surface Ships; Twenty Year Member of Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers; etc, etc...) The boat was never surveyed in the water. I purchased it in November when all boats here are hauled out and could not do a sea trial on the boat.

The PO was ecstatic to see it sold and staying in Chicago and has asked to come sailing on it. He's the original owner of this 30 year old boat. I think if he had been trying to knowingly dump a money pit on someone he wouldn't have wanted to remain so close to it and he clearly still has a sentimental attachment to the boat, so I honestly believe this was a problem that he was unaware of.

I'm with you on the washers, they scream repair job - they are far enough aft in the bilge section that they can not be seen without unscrewing and pulling up a section of the floor - a task the surveyor did not do, although it takes about 10 seconds. Regardless, he didn't see them to inspect them.
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