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  #71  
Old 06-18-2013
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Re: 1972 tartan 30

I was to pay for the boat well this year but the owner agreed to step the mast and otherwise get the boat rigged and tuned and ready to sail. We had not agreed on a sea trial. I figured if the boat surveyed well it should sail as good as it should? Beta/kubota diesel by the way. Not quite sure the owner is of able body to do a sea trial.

Last edited by abrahamx; 06-18-2013 at 02:57 PM.
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  #72  
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Re: 1972 tartan 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by abrahamx View Post
I was to pay for the boat well this year but the owner agreed to step the mast and otherwise get the boat rigged and tuned and ready to sail. We had not agreed on a sea trial. I figured if the boat surveyed well it should sail as good as it should? Beta/kubota diesel by the way. Not quite sure the owner is of able body to do a sea trial.
You and the surveyor go on the sea trial; owner can stay ashore. I would not buy a boat without a satisfactory sea trial.

Ignore the nonsense about how some don't want to give a free boat ride or you should already know how it sails. That is rubbish. You cannot be confident about how that particular boat will function and discover its true condition without a sea trial.

Even the broker's assn. contract has a sea trial provision in it. The contract I used (and published here for free) makes it a contingency, satisfactory in your absolute discretion, boat to be made ready in the water at the seller's expense. If you don't like it for any reason, you get your deposit back and you walk.

"4. Contingencies: The sale is subject to a satisfactory marine survey or professional inspection, and a satisfactory sea trial by Buyer, both to be completed at Buyer’s option and expense by ____________________. Seller shall make the Sailboat available for the survey and inspection and Seller shall cause the Sailboat to be placed in the water and ready prior to the sea trial at Seller’s expense. In the event that either the survey/inspection or sea trial are not satisfactory to Buyer in his sole discretion, then the earnest money deposit shall be forthwith refunded to Buyer."

Renegotiate your contract to include a sea trial so you can fully test the boat's operation and know what you are buying.

By the way, as much respect as I have for marine surveyors, they do make mistakes, just like everyone else. You cannot rely on his or her opinion as a substitute for your own judgment.

Whole contract I used, drawn up for Virginia:

CONTRACT OF SALE
THIS CONTRACT OF SALE is made this ____ day of ______________, 20____, by and between __________________________________________________ (“the Seller”) and _________________________________________________ (“the Buyer”).
WITNESSETH: that for and in consideration of the mutual promises and covenants contained herein and other good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are hereby acknowledged by the parties, Seller and Buyer agree as follows:
1. Property. Seller agrees to sell to Buyer and Buyer agrees to purchase from Seller a ____ _____________________ sailboat, “______________”, hull identification number __________________________ along with all property attached to and enclosed in the vessel, including but not limited to the following ( all of which, the vessel and the property, to be referred to as “the Sailboat”):
a. All standing and running rigging, mast, boom, spreaders, stays, shrouds, traveler, mainsheet, jib sheets, ________ winches, ____ winch handles, cleats, traveler, and boom vang;
b. Main sail and ____________ jibs, sail bags and mainsail cover;
c. ____________________________________ engine and gas tank;
d. Electrical system, wiring and electronics, marine battery, VHF radio, depth finder, cabin lights, battery switch, running lights, and _______________________________;
d. Below decks/cabin furnishings, equipment, cushions for all berths, cooler, _________ toilet with _____________, foul weather jackets/gear, books, charts, and __________________;
e. Safety gear/equipment: ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ electric and manual bilge pumps, lifelines, stanchions, bow pulpit, stern pulpit, life preservers, flotation cushions, bell, flares, horn and ________________________________;
f. Anchor, anchor chain, and rode, mooring lines, cleats, ____ fenders; and,
g. Other: __________________________________________________ _______.
2. Price. The total sales price for the Sailboat is _____________________________________
Dollars ($___________.00). Seller acknowledges receipt of an earnest money deposit check in the amount of __________________________ Dollars ($______) from Buyer, with the balance of the total sales price to be paid by Buyer to Seller at closing.
3. Seller’s Representations: Seller represents and warrants the following: that Seller has clear title to the Sailboat, free and clear of any liens, levies, charges, assessments, or attachments; that Seller is the sole owner, with full and complete authority to enter into this contract of sale and to transfer title to the vessel to Buyer by a certificate of title; that the Sailboat is in normal operating condition for a vessel of its age; and that Seller has no knowledge of any material defect(s) in the Sailboat, patent or latent, except as follows:__________________________________________ _ __________________________________________________ ___________.
4. Contingencies: The sale is subject to a satisfactory marine survey or professional inspection, and a satisfactory sea trial by Buyer, both to be completed at Buyer’s option and expense by ____________________. Seller shall make the Sailboat available for the survey and inspection and Seller shall cause the Sailboat to be placed in the water and ready prior to the sea trial at Seller’s expense. In the event that either the survey/inspection or sea trial are not satisfactory to Buyer in his sole discretion, then the earnest money deposit shall be forthwith refunded to Buyer.
5. Closing: This sale shall close on _____________________ at _____________________, at which time Buyer shall deliver to Seller a certified or cashier’s check for the balance of the Sales Price in return for Seller’s transfer of the title to Sailboat to Buyer, by endorsement and delivery of a certificate of title to Buyer and by Seller’s transfer to Buyer of any and all keys, locks, and operational devices. The Seller shall deliver and transfer the Sailboat to Buyer at closing, launched/re-launched in the water at _________________________________________. Risk of loss remains with Seller until delivery of title to Buyer.
6. Addresses: Seller and Buyer each warrant and represent to each other that his residential address and telephone number are as follows:
Seller:___________________________________________ _________________________
Buyer: __________________________________________________ __________________
7. Modification: This contract may only be modified by a writing signed by the parties.
WITNESS the following signatures and seals:
SELLER: BUYER:

__________________________(SEAL) ___________________________(SEAL)


__________________________(SEAL) ___________________________(SEAL)

Last edited by jameswilson29; 06-18-2013 at 03:44 PM.
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  #73  
Old 06-18-2013
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Re: 1972 tartan 30

It sounds pretty mixed on the survey and I would have the engine carefully evaluated.

You can clearly get the next size smaller boat with less issues for less money. There is a huge price difference jumping from 25-27' boats to 28-30' boats due to the complexities of an inboard. There are comfort payoffs, which is why so many of us do it, but it's not the cheap route to enjoying sailing.

This one is less money today because it is lower purchase price, if it ends up with motor issues you are still going to likely end up with a $15-$20k boat within a year. It's worth getting estimates or figuring out your own time investment for repairing the decks, fixing the engine, and repairing the rudder.

Is the Tartan 30 rudder wood core? If they are then that could be expensive to replace. If it is weeping moisture and wood core than the core is shot and you'll probably need a new one.

If your budget is strict and tight then I'd personally give this one a pass. If it is elastic and has a desire to stay small then it might be worth the risk (especially if you enjoy the fix-it projects).
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  #74  
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Re: 1972 tartan 30

Thanks for the contract. A mechanic I talked to said it sounds like (from the clear oil on the dipstick) that it was filled in the fall. And since it is half full that is probably what leaked. Said it was probably the rear main or oil tank and either way the engine would have to be pulled to be repaired. Putting repairs at the 2k mark. Not sure if it is true or not with a tartan as they have such good engine acess. Anyone know diesels in a tartan?
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Re: 1972 tartan 30

What if there is a more serious problem and the engine needs to be replaced?

At a minimum, you need to test it on the hard with a hose and bucket rig. Pay a mechanic to inspect and evaluate the engine with you while it is running.

The inboard engine accounts for about half the value of these old boats. Don't make a big mistake and buy an inoperable one.
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Re: 1972 tartan 30

Not a good sign. Depends what is leaking. Lower seal means engine comes out. That's a lot of oil in a short time without it being run. I would be very cautious.

James is rightl. Sea trial is not o see if it sails, but to see if its ship shape , engine , leaks etc.

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  #77  
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Re: 1972 tartan 30

I did want to add that I have heard you when you've said that you don't want a smaller boat. I don't make that recommendation again just to annoy you.

I want a brand new J/97, but can't justify/afford the price so I have something less expensive. It's a matter of fitting available budget to the right boat.

No information on sails from the survey is a concern too.
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  #78  
Old 06-18-2013
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Re: 1972 tartan 30

For those of you unfamiliar with the T30 cabin layout you need to know that the engine access is superb; the best I have seen in any other sail boat. The engine sits in the middle of the cabin sole (under a removable cover) and is easily accessible on all sides.
The engine is NOT tucked away under the companionway steps like in most designs.

You do need to find out where/why the engine oil is leaking out. The good news is that it is a Kubota and parts can be found cheaply for it from farming/heavy equipment dealers, not marine pirate retailers. Parts from the marine pirates can cost 90% more than a farmer might pay so you can save some serious cash if you know where/how to shop for Kubota parts. Sounds to me like a main rear seal or water pump oil seal could allow oil to drip out; neither of which are un-fixable.

There must be 5 T30's at our club. I see them come up for sale from time to time and they are usually priced a bit lower than $9K. Keep in mind that most of these T30's had the Atomic 4 engine in them which is reflected in the lower price. I don't think that $9K is too much for a T30 with a good working diesel in it - you just need to make sure that the diesel is "good working" and not spilling oil. The real question is who pays for making the engine a non-oil leaking engine: you, or the current owner?
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  #79  
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Re: 1972 tartan 30

I agree with Caleb. Run the engine on the hard and see what you've got. The excellent engine access makes this a really viable option. Finding an older boat like this that has had the A4 replaced by a diesel is a big plus. Worth finding out what the issues ar with the engine is worth it since you've already had the survey with no really major problems uncovered.
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Re: 1972 tartan 30

4' of soft decks and the rudder having elevated moisture levels aren't major problems?

The Tartan 30 and similar Yankee 30 do have good engine access.
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