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Docking with a spring line questions

7K views 47 replies 14 participants last post by  brianc 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey all,

I've been reading a lot about docking with a single bow aft or midship aft springline and I've successfully done so on several boats, however, I'm having a lot of trouble getting it to work correctly on my boat, a C&C 99 with a Volvo saildrive.

Attached is a deck layout with the position of the dock cleats (yellow lines), position of a pad eye used to attach a block for the spinnaker sheet (red circle with a pink line), shroud chainplate (red circle), stanchions (blue circles), and bow cleat (lime circle.)

I've basically tried attaching springs running aft to the cleat at the end of the dock from all the places listed above except for the bow cleat because I don't have a dock line long enough.

From any of those locations, in light wind, with the wheel hard to starboard (port tie), unless I rev the engine up to ~1800 RPM I don't get enough pivot to bring the stern in to the dock and actually the stern swings away from the dock when I first engage forward throttle. 1800 seems way too high, even taking in to consideration that the rudder is farther aft from the saildrive than it would be on a shaft drive, to be necessary to hold the stern in to the dock.

My slip typically has a crosswind blowing me off the dock which has caused some issues docking so I really want to get this to work better. I would also potentially use a breast line but the cleat on the dock seems like it's too far forward for that to work (it's just slightly forward of the shrouds when she's all the way in the slip.

Any thoughts or ideas? Is the length of the line or attachment point wrong? It doesn't seem like it should be this difficult.

Thanks, Brian
 

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#2 ·
I've had boats that spring in well on a breast line, and others not so much. I think the position of the line attachment on the boat matters the most. I'm thinking you need to attach further aft on your boat.

A sail drive might tend to position the prop a little more forward than on a traditional shaft log setup (since the prop can sit almost under the motor). Maybe this also has an effect because you are pushing from a more forward point....not sure, maybe someone with more experience with sail drives can chime in.

Also, the diagram looks like the boat is fairly full aft, so if you think about springing off from against the dock, you cannot pivot as much from amidships as you could in a more traditional design with more taper aft. But I still think it should work if you find the right point on your boat to attach the dock line.

You can experiment without damaging anything by slackening all the lines a bit and trying various breast line positions, until it does what you want when pushing slowly forward.
 
#3 ·
Assuming you are trying to back into your slip:

Come along side one of the piles that will hold the other end of a bow line once you are docked. Not knowing your slip arrangement, let me assume you put your port side to the pile. Attach one end of a line to the pile and the other end to your aftmost port cleat. Center your rudder and saildrive. Put the engine into reverse. The boat should pivot about the pile. You have to slowly ease the line as you back into the slip, and you may have to harden the line and move forward to work the stern in.
 
#4 · (Edited)
@johnnyquest37 - I'm trying to go bow in, port tie. Backing in is an option I need to look at though, it would just be a really long trip in reverse down the fairway.

@capecodda - The prop is directly under the forward part of the cockpit so it is definitely further from the rudder than a shaft design. It's probably about 6 to 8 feet in front of the rudder. I attached another pic showing approx where my saildrive is vs the shaft (not my boat, just an illustration.) I'm thinking it has less direct effect on the rudder which is maybe why it requires much higher RPM to hold the boat.

What would the effect of attaching the spring further aft?
 

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#8 · (Edited by Moderator)
@johnnyquest37 - I'm trying to go bow in, port tie. Backing in is an option I need to look at though, it would just be a really long trip in reverse down the fairway.
The beauty of warping in like I described is that you don't have to back down the fairway. You go forward into the fairway and then warp into the slip backwards as I described. I do this almost every time I dock my boat.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Assuming you are docking bow-in: Your spring needs to be aft of your spinnaker padeye- for a springline to work properly as an "arrestor hook" when looped around the aft most dock cleat when docking, it has to be at, or aft of, the fattest part of the boat.
Enter slip slow, drop spring line over cleat, turn away from dock, throttle up, she'll snuggle right up to the dock- with a wind blowing off the dock, add more throttle after the spring is over the dock cleat.
 
#6 ·
Assuming you are docking bow-in: Your spring needs to be aft of your spinnaker padeye- for a springline to work properly as an "arrestor hook" when looped around the aft most dock cleat when docking, it has to be at, or aft of, the fattest part of the boat.
Enter slip slow, drop spring line over cleat, turn towards dock, throttle up, she'll snuggle right up to the dock- with a wind blowing off the dock, add more throttle after the spring is over the dock cleat.
I think this is correct.

If you attach your spring just to the stern, and power forward, the stern will certainly come in but the bow might start to pull away from the dock. If you attach your spring just to the bow, the bow will certainly come in and the stern will pull away. Someplace between these 2 extremes is a sweet spot that pulls the boat in parallel to the dock.

I'm also thinking that having the prop further forward via the sail drive impacts this balance point a bit, moving it a bit further aft...but not sure about this one.
 
#11 ·
I do think the major problem is that your prop is so far away from the rudder there's no 'propwash' effect on the blade and since you're stopped it probably doesn't matter what you do with your rudder... ergo the trick is going to be finding that elusive 'sweet spot'.

Does is make any difference what position the rudder is in?

I like the idea of an moving the spring nearly to the stern too...
 
#13 ·
I like the idea of an moving the spring nearly to the stern too...
Wont that allow you get too far into the slip before stopping the boats forward motion with little room for error?

By being on one end or the other ( bow/stern) wont it allow the opposite end to blow away from the dock?

Having your first line tied up being in the midship area kind of prevents that.
 
#12 ·
capecodda, bljones - thanks, it's making more sense now!

chef2sail - you talk about a second line but shouldn't the first line prevent the boat from reaching the head of the slip? how sturdy is the jib track cleat? i don't have anything behind the pad eye other than stanchions to tie to...

Faster - i haven't tried any other rudder angles but it does make me wonder how much effect the rudder angle is having given the distance from the prop. i know if i give it enough gas with the wheel hard away from the dock the stern will swing in, it just makes me uncomfortable having to throttle up so much with a bunch of cement and wood about a foot in front of the bow!
 

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#15 ·
I wasn't talking about two lines. One line. One end ( loop) around a robust jib track cleat set just behind the midline( wide part of the boat), the other end of that same line to the dock cleat or piling tied aft of the middle of the boat to prevent the boat from hitting the head of the slip. The fixed line is the first you grab and drop over the midship cleat when you come in.

jib track cleat - Google Search
 
#14 ·
Hey,

I thought an 'advantage' of the saildrive was no prop walk.

Personally I *like* the propwalk I get on my boat. By shifting into reverse and revving the engine up I get almost the same effect as a stern thruster. The stern will swing to port while the bow doesn't really move.

Of course, getting off the dock is a different story....

Unfortunately I can't offer any advice on getting into your slip.

Barry
 
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#18 · (Edited)
FWIW the propwash on your rudder will not push the boat to the dock. Propwash serves only to rotate the boat, you use the right rudder and propwash to rotate the boat to establish and maintain it parallel to the dock, fighting the tendency of the wind to push the bow off (and to a degree the boat...). You need the forward power to push the boat to the dock - more breeze, more power.

You have two different controls which need to be used together but understanding what each is capable of doing. Advice, use the propwash to line the boat up parallel tot he dock before laying on the power to bring it against the dock...adjust your angle with the rudder, your distance to dock with power.
 
#19 ·
Faster is probably correct in that your rudder is not doing much by the time you are up against the dock.

I would suggest finding a long floating dock with lots of cleats to practice on. Maybe your fuel dock on a nice night. Just keep repositioning lines until you get it right.

Once you find that sweet spot for the spring line you should be able to hold the boat gently against the dock in forward with varying degrees of throttle depending on wind/current speed.
 
#20 · (Edited)
To the OP:

The key is a mid ship cleat. Anywhere from the widest point on the boat to a little aft. Once that is in place the thrust will keep you in place and yes the rudder will help. The placement of the rudder is different on most boats, but not by much. Get a line running aft from the MID SHIP cleat postition and you will be fine. Anything forward of that positon and I don't want to be your starboard neigbor with that big stern coming at me.

Go to Quantum Sails website and pull up Capt. Jacks videos. He has a good one in there on exactly this subject. Rocket science this is not! Simple physics!
 
#23 ·
A simple way to find the optimal location for a mid ship spring line cleat is to attach a dock line to a stanchion base just past mid ship. Secure to a dock cleat, release the other dock lines and rock the boat back and forward, then move the dock line back to the next stanchion base back and repeat.

This will give you an idea of how much bow and stern swings out with a mid ship dock line only.
 
#24 ·
My slip faces into the prevailing wind, I dock bow in and have a finger pier on the port side and pilings to port and starboard at the stern.
Will a spring line on port side running a bit aft of mid boat to port stern piling work? That is my current plan but I am not in the water yet to test it.
 
#25 ·
Ward,

Not to get too cavalier about the whole thing, but think of using a springline as the Wile E. Coyote method of docking- come into the slip, drop the line over the cleat, wait a second and then per-WANG! your boat stops, and with some deft throttle and wheel/tiller work she'll snuggle up the dock leaving nearby Searay pilots in awe. so, to make all of this work all impressive like- the line has to be at or aft of the widest part of the boat. imagine the physics, and you will understand why. if your wile e coyote acme dock cleat catcher is too far forward, when she goes per-WANG! your boat will nose into the corner of the slip. Too far back and she will nose into the OTHER corner of the slip, or, worse, your slipneighbour's boat.

knot a temporary spring to the right length or thereabouts, secure it to a hard point at or aft of the widest part of the vessel and PRACTICE.

Now, much of the advice above is predicated on having a crew member handling the springline- you can do it singlehanded but the degree of difficulty depends upon boatcleat and piling and dock cleat placement. running a bannister line or a snag to your springline to allow deployment from the cockpit may be necessary. Still doable, but it takes a little more thought and more practice.
 
#28 ·
Ward, with the short finger pier it really depends where the touch point is on the boat. I would assume there is something fairly solid so it depends on where it hits the boat and what is in the way.

Dependent on your piling at the stern this is easy or simple single handling. I also single hand most of the time, and even with new crew I single hand back into my slip because I know how it works. In my case with floating docks I drop a pre measured line over the piling at the end of the dock. I have cleats on the dock but the piling is the easiest target and harder to miss. The key is really controlling speed into the slip. Dependent on the wind I am at 2 knots into a hard wind or with one pushing me, or less than a knot in light winds, when I drop my line over the piling.

If you piling is high I would find something strong to attach to it ( a cleat or hook) to make it easier to catch.

Although I use the same mid ship line in almost every situation, in some transient slips the point of contact on the dock can be more difficult. For my home slip I have a long line that is premarked for my rear cleat. I run the line from the mid ship cleat, outside of the life lines, and back to the stern cleat... again outside. That leaves me a large amount of line to drop over the piling and then I use the line to slow the boat by hand until I reapply power and snug it into the dock. The boat is in complete control before I think about stepping off the boat.

My spring line is set so that the boat, when in idle and in gear, is six inches from hitting the dock. In that way I can easily reattach the bow lines, which I leave tied at the dock, and then reverse the boat to attach the stern lines.

I had a gentleman stop at the boat the other day while I was aboard. He had seen me pull into the slip after launch and wanted to know how I was in control and not frantic, as he had a new to him boat and was having issues with our slips. I explained the system that I use and I saw him coming in the other day and applying the same system. He definetely had it down.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Yes, there are pilings on both sides as I enter the slip, which I tie the port and starboard stern lines to. The slip is for a 30'r so with my 25'r the transom is inside of the pilings.
I will use the piling on the same side as the finger pier for the bitter end of the spring line. As I enter the slip I will pick the loop of the spring line off the piling and put it over the winch, to start. The winch is about even with the forward bulkhead of the cockpit. I can play with other locations and when I find the sweet spot I will install a cleat.
I was just not sure if the mid to aft of the mid of the boat needs to snug against the pier.

T&C
The finger pier is sturdy with the end on a piling. My lines will remain attached to the pilings or dock so I just need to pick the loop of the piling and put over the winch/cleat, then wait for the bow end to snug against the pier.

I have only docked this boat 4 times last fall. First time I was bouncing off things like a ping pong ball. (No other boats, just pilings and bulkhead). The last time I just eased it in real pretty. But I need a sure fire way to dock easily in all conditions and this sure sounds like what I need.
 
#30 ·
I guess I kinda got lost, is this about stopping a boat in a slip with a single spring line or holding a boat in a slip with a single spring line.
To hold a boat against a dock with a single spring its an easy force balance and having the sail drive far from the rudder is a big factor. You need the prop wash against the rudder to push the stern into the dock while the spring line holds the bow. Yes, the reason you need 1800 rpm's is because the prop is far from the rudder and by the time the moving water gets to the rudder it need the energy to push the boat. I use this technique all the time for quick stops at the pump out or loading /unloading. And BTW, this has almost no chance of working in reverse.

John
 
#31 ·
jfdubu - For me it was about both. Basically creating a simple way to pull in to the slip under varying conditions (especially a cross wind blowing me off the dock) and then to hold the boat in place while the other lines are tied off.

"You need the prop wash against the rudder to push the stern into the dock while the spring line holds the bow." (assuming the spring line is cleated near the bow)

It seems like there are two schools of thought on this...

The first is to tie the spring just aft of the bow which then holds the bow in while the rudder wash (wheel away from the dock) pulls the stern in.

The second, which we've been talking about in this thread (mostly) is attaching the spring at or aft of the beam and presumably using the rudder wash (or maybe just forward propulsion) to hold the boat on the dock.

Is this correct? Articles/videos describing both claim the same result...but obviously, for me, the first option wasn't working too well.
 
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