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  #191  
Old 06-17-2013
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Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
When I registered my PLB, I had to certify my understanding that it was not to be activated unless I was in distress and REQUIRED IMMEDIATE assistance.

I believe this is the applicable federal regulation:eCFR ? Code of Federal Regulations

47 CFR § 80.1111 Distress alerting.
(a) The transmission of a distress alert indicates that a mobile unit or person is in distress and requires immediate assistance. The distress alert is a digital selective call using a distress call format in bands used for terrestrial radiocommunication or a distress message format, which is relayed through space stations.

We could eliminate 90% of these unnecessary distress calls with the implementation and public knowledge of 2 regulations:

1. The vessel must be scuttled as it poses a risk to maritime navigation, either by the owner/operator or by the USCG at the owner's/operator's expense.

2. The owner and operator of the vessel are jointly liable for all the actual costs of rescue, to be reimbursed within, say, 90 days of rescue, if the USCG determines either that immediate assistance was not required, or if the rescue could have reasonably been avoided with prudent trip planning and seamanship.

So, sure, you can call the Coast Guard, but you will lose your vessel in every event and, in the event you are at fault for the distress situation or unnecessary rescue, you will pay for the rescue.
Its a great theory, but the premise is wrong as you haven't proven that 90% of the distress calls are unnecessary. And who determines it...the SN jury?

In addition in this case the CG already makes the determination BEFORE it comes out in determining whether immediate assistance was required.

I am wary of any lawyer who feels there should be another law created. This is an unnecessary law and a waste of time and is a ploy to create another unenforceable law. The affect of this would not have an effect on the facts of rescues by the CG and would not keep people from asking to be rescued if they felt they needed it.

The sole purpose of is punitive and is to make money for the lawyers.
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  #192  
Old 06-17-2013
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Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
We could eliminate 90% of these unnecessary distress calls with the implementation and public knowledge of 2 regulations:

1. The vessel must be scuttled as it poses a risk to maritime navigation, either by the owner/operator or by the USCG at the owner's/operator's expense.

2. The owner and operator of the vessel are jointly liable for all the actual costs of rescue, to be reimbursed within, say, 90 days of rescue, if the USCG determines either that immediate assistance was not required, or if the rescue could have reasonably been avoided with prudent trip planning and seamanship.

So, sure, you can call the Coast Guard, but you will lose your vessel in every event and, in the event you are at fault for the distress situation or unnecessary rescue, you will pay for the rescue.
The Coast Guard, of course, is consistently and vocally opposed to any such law. But, what do they know, they don't have a sailnet account!
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  #193  
Old 06-17-2013
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Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

I am late to this thread, and have two comments. First, there is an amazing amount of discussion based on a very short news article. I have never seen a news article about any sailing incident get things right, especially the details.
Second, one thing to note about those CG statistics we are talking about: If the reason for the decline was a change in methodology or a similar event, the change would be precipitous, not gradual. The fact that it is a fairly steady gradual decline suggest to me that it represents a real trend. I do agree that the changes in mission and transfer of responsibility for towing to the private industry may have some effect, but most of Boat US and Sea Tow work is towing and out-of-fuel calls. In fact, if there is a life in peril on the boat, the Coast Guard also is called, and it would show up in the Coast Guard stats.

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  #194  
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Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

In addition it is proven by the facts presented which you fail to recognize due to stubbornness and some kind of professional " feeling " you have that the amount of rescues of people...not just sorties is down. If the facts stated the opposite youd be ramming them down our throats instead.

Just like the axiom says...You can lead a horse to water...but you cant make it drink. For the life of me I cant understand why even the facts seem to escape you here.
Perhaps Charlie Doane has expressed a bit more clearly what I have observed during my own time running boats and cruising:

Quote:

I suspect the public at large doesn't really understand how often we sailors ask to get rescued. My guess is the number of idiots, as a percentage of the total sailing population, who get themselves into trouble unreasonably has probably remained fairly constant. But the fact that it is now so easy to call for help, thanks to modern satellite distress-signalling technology, has surely increased the number of distress calls made by such people. Satellite communications have also greatly increased the number of relatively inexperienced people engaged in more-or-less reasonable voyages who call for help when they don't really need it. I can cite any number of examples here. The most compelling, from my own experience, involves a cruising rally participant who once pressed the panic button and called for an offshore evacuation from his vessel simply because he was intimidated by a weather forecast.
Please, lead this stoopid horse to water... Show me precisely the "facts" or "numbers" which conclusively demonstrate Doane is wrong, or indeed the opposite is the case, regarding the very specific subset under discussion of offshore sailors calling for rescue, and abandoning their yachts at sea...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 06-17-2013 at 06:34 PM.
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  #195  
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Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Perhaps Charlie Doane has expressed a bit more clearly what I have observed during my own time running boats and cruising:



Please, lead this stoopid horse to water... Show me precisely the "facts" or "numbers" which conclusively demonstrate Doane is wrong, or indeed the opposite is the case, regarding the very specific subset under discussion of offshore sailors calling for rescue, and abandoning their yachts at sea...
At least Doane uses the phrase "my guess". And that's what it is. A guess.

Quote:
Guess - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Guess - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
to form an opinion of from little or no evidence. 2. : believe, suppose . 3. : to arrive at a correct conclusion about by conjecture, chance, ...

Jon my friend you have been supplied the numbers. I can't help you here that you can't see what they mean. I can only show you the water. I can't make you drink it.

Thanks for proving my point. You rely on a guess. I supply facts at least to extrapolate from. You keep asking for more refined facts while making more and more guesses. Now which makes more common sense. To rely on guesses or facts.
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  #196  
Old 06-17-2013
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Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

One factor not mentioned yet is the fact that wood boats have all but disappeared. I wonder how the decline in wood hulls correlates with the steady decline in rescue calls. Can't help but guess that sinking calls have decreased.
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  #197  
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Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
At least Doane uses the phrase "my guess". And that's what it is. A guess.
I don't believe I've ever claimed that which I'm asserting is anything more than my Opinion, informed by what my own eyes and ears have told me over the past 35 years as a professional involved the recreational boating industry... I think I fully appreciate what I've seen and heard over such time remains only "factual" in my own mind, those are the only "facts" I have access to... Anyone reading this thread is certainly free to suspect I may simply be some internet blowhard who may never even ventured out on the water, that my impressions derived over the better part of a lifetime in the delivery business are still nothing more than those "based upon little or no evidence", or am inventing stories out of whole cloth merely for the sake of argument... Or, that others who have come to hold views concurrent with my own - people like the dockmaster at Beaufort Docks, or Charlie Doane, or even Don Street - are entirely mistaken about the similar opinions we've each arrived at independently, as well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Jon my friend you have been supplied the numbers. I can't help you here that you can't see what they mean. I can only show you the water. I can't make you drink it.

Thanks for proving my point. You rely on a guess. I supply facts at least to extrapolate from. You keep asking for more refined facts while making more and more guesses. Now which makes more common sense. To rely on guesses or facts.
As I've said before, those numbers you're provided are of such a general nature as to be essentially meaningless to this discussion... Since I seem to have misplaced my reading glasses capable of viewing columns printed in invisible ink, or that show Imaginary Numbers, could you be so kind as to provide the breakdown for the gross totals of Sorties/etc for, say, 2012? You know, stuff like how many involved commercial vs. recreational vessels? Power vs. Sail? Inland waters vs. Offshore? Or, homeowners rescued from their property after Hurricane Sandy vs. sailors rescued from abandoned sailboats offshore? If you could offer a bit more detail with your "facts" you continue to insist disprove my own observations, then we might actually be getting somewhere in this roundabout...

Until then, anyone versed in the application of statistics would get a hearty chuckle re your attempt to extrapolate true significance about a category not even defined within those grand totals, such a process seems akin to "extrapolating" how a particular county in America voted last November, by knowing nothing more than the total national vote count for Obama and Romney...

Look, I did my first trip down the ICW back in 1975... All I can say, is that the nature of the game has changed significantly during that time. It's a bit more difficult to me to PROVE that, of course - the best I can do is offer by OPINION, bolstered by impressions and incidents of an admittedly anecdotal nature... Now, perhaps my hundreds of trips up and down the East coast over the years have been entirely unique, and I've witnessed things that have only occurred once, and never repeated or witnessed by anyone else... Possible, I suppose, but seems a bit unlikely, to me...

Back in the 70's, the Coasties handled virtually EVERY call for assistance on the water... They had many more assets along the way in those days, CG stations in strategic places like Coinjock, NC were shuttered a long time ago... They did everything from delivering fuel to boats that had run empty, to the sort of life-saving routines they do today...

However, for a boat run aground, first thing they would determine would be the state of the tide... If it was falling, unless the vessel might truly be in danger, they would generally not dispatch a vessel until the opposite phase of the tide... Makes perfect sense, of course...

Today, I am astonished at the ease with which most boaters call upon a service like Sea Tow, seemingly at the drop of a hat... And, Sea Tow will often happily comply coming out on a falling tide, it's all money billable by the hour in their pocket, after all...

The notion of 'Self-Rescue' seems almost entirely absent among many of today's boaters, much less the patience to wait 6 hours or so for the tide to refloat one off the bottom... So many of today's sailors have schedules to keep, after all, or reservations at the next marina... "Get me out of here, NOW - I've got Unlimited Towing, after all..." The extent to which this sort of attitude trickles over into other aspects of the way many sail today seems obvious to me - as is the way in which many of these attitudes have been taken offshore, as well... "Get me out of here, NOW - I've got salvage coverage, after all..." But alas, yet again, I cannot provide the 'facts" or "numbers" to PROVE that, so - such an impression must remain:

Just my opinion, as always...
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 06-17-2013 at 08:52 PM.
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Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Here's a straw man.

You pay some portion of the rescue, unless you opt for one of the following:

1. Pay an insurance premium of a few thousand dollars before you depart. I think that is probably a reasonable risk premium for a potentially several hundred thousand dollar rescue.

2. (which I like better), you must have your boat inspected and passed by the local power squadron or CG Aux or whomever, just like the boats that participate in offshore racing, and have passed a safety at sea course, just like boats participating in offshore racing. Many boats that intended to comply with the offshore outfitting rules, still fail on their first inspection.

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Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...Until then, anyone versed in the application of statistics would get a hearty chuckle re your attempt to extrapolate true significance about a category not even defined within those grand totals, such a process seems akin to "extrapolating" how a particular county in America voted last November, by knowing nothing more than the total national vote count for Obama and Romney.......
Excellent point. This discussion is about a particular subset of that data and it could have increased for all we know, while the totals decreased. Flashing the totals makes no relevant point whatsoever.
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Re: Coast Guard rescues 4 "sailors" off Charleston...

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Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
The Coast Guard, of course, is consistently and vocally opposed to any such law. But, what do they know, they don't have a sailnet account!
Actually I believe she is a moderator here.
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