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  #61  
Old 06-25-2013
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Re: charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post
Once more, the chart plotter mentioned in accidents above was not to blame, the Captain was driving his boat without paying attention to things around him. I have to say some people just are never going to get it, the electronics should not be sailing your vessel, you as the Captain must sail the vessel. The same accidents can happen when a Captain is looking through his bifocals at his charts. In Spanish we have a saying, a word really, envergado I won't translate it to closely but it means you screwed yourself...sort of... by getting stuck on it.

If you get stuck on a chart, a cup of tea, or a chart plotter you are distracted. If you are sailing rapidly in the dark into a mooring area or dock, as would have to have been the case in the above mentioned boating accident, you were in the wrong before you even got started looking at the plotter. If you get envergado you did it to yourself.
You're right, of course, I have no disagreement with much of what you say...

However, it's just that the modern gizmos make it so EASY to develop bad habits as a navigator, and the reliance upon them exclusively can so easily breed laziness, and imprudence... Again, no need to ask me how I know this... (grin)

A few years ago, Beth Leonard (yeah, I know, what would SHE know about this, right?) wrote:

Quote:

...we have recently seen more "electronic chart assisted groundings" than any other type of accident. The charts look so real we start thinking they are reality and don't check them against any other navigational aid.

In the end, the GPS and chart plotters are just another aid to navigation, not the aid. The old warning about never relying on one aid to navigation is as true for GPS as for any other position-fixing device. We have to constantly remind ourselves to corroborate its readings with the radar, depth sounder, bearings on landmarks, or just eyeballing and identifying each passing island so we know where we are. These good habits die quickly when the GPS comes aboard, but preserving and encouraging them may well save your boat someday.

A Teachable Moment Beth Leonard
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  #62  
Old 06-25-2013
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Re: charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
You're right, of course, I have no disagreement with much of what you say...

However, it's just that the modern gizmos make it so EASY to develop bad habits as a navigator, and the reliance upon them exclusively can so easily breed laziness, and imprudence... Again, no need to ask me how I know this... (grin)

A few years ago, Beth Leonard (yeah, I know, what would SHE know about this, right?) wrote:
Okay, if you have a networked chart plotter system or use the one I am really wanting to see that is new the Nobeltec TIMEZERO setup which combines all of the systems into one that is pretty much 3D and realtime. You still have to open your eyes and swivel your head a bit. It is kind of a duh situation.
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  #63  
Old 06-26-2013
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Re: charts

Man, you guys underestimate some sailors out there. Paper charts aren't as uncommon as you think. The poster who said nobody uses them? Not true at all. I also don't agree with your logic that we have to embrace all new technology. If we did, wouldn't we not be sailing at all? I'm going to Canada tomorrow. Wouldn't technology tell Me I don't need sails and a slow boat when I could get a powerboat and be there already? Paper charts are far more fun for me. Maybe someday I will change, but when I just went into the nautical store and they had a roll of paper for Los Angeles to Cabo San Lucas. I wanted it. The newest plotter not so much.

Last edited by northoceanbeach; 06-26-2013 at 01:49 AM.
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  #64  
Old 06-26-2013
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Re: charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by northoceanbeach View Post
Man, you guys underestimate some sailors out there. Paper charts aren't as uncommon as you think. The poster who said nobody uses them? Not true at all. I also don't agree with your logic that we have to embrace all new technology. If we did, wouldn't we not be sailing at all? I'm going to Canada tomorrow. Wouldn't technology tell Me I don't need sails and a slow boat when I could get a powerboat and be there already? Paper charts are far more fun for me. Maybe someday I will change...
Well, that day will likely come when you eventually make the switch over to power... (grin)

In my opinion, the mindset that results from reliance on this technology exclusively for route planning and navigating underway is FAR more conducive to cruising under power, as opposed to under sail... An undue preoccupation with straightline, (way)point to (way)point piloting is the result, and the lazy man's method of chartplotter/autopilot interfaced 'piloting' is often employed... There is no stranger or more amusing reaction than that of a 'sailor' who begins to freak out when his Cross-Track Error from the dotted line on the screen begins to exceed a few hundred feet... One can only imagine how many times sails have been furled, and the Iron Genoa fired up, solely due to the inability to sail a course within a few degrees of a plotted rhumb line. Or, when some take it all to the next level of dependence upon such route planning, and actually do something as dumb as attempting to cross the Florida Straits from Miami, by interfacing their autopilot to a waypoint off Bimini....

Last edited by JonEisberg; 06-26-2013 at 11:00 AM.
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  #65  
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Re: charts

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Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post
Once more, the chart plotter mentioned in accidents above was not to blame, the Captain was driving his boat without paying attention to things around him. I have to say some people just are never going to get it, the electronics should not be sailing your vessel, you as the Captain must sail the vessel. The same accidents can happen when a Captain is looking through his bifocals at his charts. In Spanish we have a saying, a word really, envergado I won't translate it to closely but it means you screwed yourself...sort of... by getting stuck on it.
Looks like the equivalent in Norwegian might be "Slitt"...

Quote:

According to Geir Skoglund, vice president of loss prevention for the Norwegian Hull Club, “Despite having far more sophisticated equipment, [boats] are currently twice as likely to have an accident due to navigational error than they were five or six years ago.”

Dockwalk - The Essential Site For Captains And Crew - DockTalk

In the winter of 2003, the tug North Service was pushing the tank barge Energy 5501 when it ran aground near the Norwalk Islands off Connecticut, puncturing holes in all six starboard tanks and spilling 2,500 gallons of heating oil into the water.

According to documents provided by the U.S. Coast Guard, the captain had plotted a foul weather route using the electronic chart navigation tools. The official cause of the accident was that neither the captain nor the mate had double checked the route against a paper chart and they had failed to recognize a charted navigation hazard on the plotted course – in other words, human error.

...

According to one of the Coast Guard investigators, “This case highlights the fact that mariners are using electronic chart systems (ECS) without adequate knowledge of how to best use these systems. Nor do they necessarily understand the functional differences that exist between paper and electronic charts…. This is evident in the manner in which the master plotted for the heavy weather by zooming out to maximize the area displayed on the screen rather than ensuring that the chart was displayed at the proper scale.”
I would guess Mr. Skoglund probably has access to some "facts" to support such an assertion, no? (grin)

Norwegian Hull Club

Last edited by JonEisberg; 06-26-2013 at 02:14 PM.
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  #66  
Old 06-26-2013
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Re: charts

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Looks like the equivalent in Norwegian might be "Slitt"...





Norwegian Hull Club
Uhm close, but I am not sure it quite makes it all the way there, think stuck on a ....
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  #67  
Old 06-26-2013
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Re: charts

In the days before electronic navigation, I used to get my charts from freighters. After 6 months or three corrections, their charts were no longer useful and were sent to "the cancelled chart drawer".
I'd go up to a ship in a port and ask for the second officer (third on Norwegian ships), the navigation officer and ask for cancelled charts. This usually led a a fine friendship, meals and laundry aboard.
After a few years I had a pretty complete world portfolio of charts, for free. Obviously, as cancelled charts they were no longer up to date, but hey, I wasn't sailing a 70,000 ton ship drawing 22 feet, so with due diligence, they worked very well.
Biggest problem was weight and storage; a thousand charts is a BIG pile.
Today I use the Garmin Blue Chart Data Cards and I've found them to be spot on (actually better than paper for accuracy) everywhere I've used them except the ICW. A bit pricey but lots smaller for storing.
Just as an aside, are you aware of the EU Shengen Laws? They are keeping us from sailing to the Med. F-ing politicians!
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