US Navy ship inquiry finished..... - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree3Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 06-22-2013
fryewe's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Gulf Coast.
Posts: 1,127
Thanks: 22
Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts
Rep Power: 10
fryewe is on a distinguished road
Re: US Navy ship inquiry finished.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
Did you think this ship was newly built and had but a single voyage under her keel? Or did you mean that you have a list of incidents over the 23 year life of this ship? Or incidents in the commander's history? Where exactly did you pull your ship's history from?
The point is that she wasn't being navigated at all...simply driven between points on the chart plotter.

Watch standing practices don't develop overnight. This ship had a culture that allowed steaming without navigating. I don't have to know anything about this ship's history or its commander to know that.

I can also tell you that it wasn't just the Navigation Department on this ship that had problems. A ship with poor watch standing on the bridge...the most visible of watch parties...will have shortcomings in Operations and Deck and Engineering and others.

Too bad the reef, the ship, and the Navy's reputation were the casualties of their laziness.

Doesn't mean that the crew of Guardian were bad people or weren't trying hard. They just didn't live up to their responsibilities. They knew them and were trained to do them. The Navy makes sure of that.

But they are people and they are fallible. That's why...for important activities - like Navigation...several levels of command and watch structure are required.

For example there are four distinct levels of oversight: for open ocean steaming, for restricted waters, for piloting waters, and for sea and anchor detail (entering and leaving port). I don't know what level was set for Guardian. What I do know is that it was enough. And it was a habit.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 06-22-2013
fryewe's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Gulf Coast.
Posts: 1,127
Thanks: 22
Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts
Rep Power: 10
fryewe is on a distinguished road
Re: US Navy ship inquiry finished.....

Correction: Wasn't enough.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 06-23-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
AKscooter is on a distinguished road
Re: US Navy ship inquiry finished.....

I did not read the entire 160 page report....and yes it might be a boiler plate production as most reports generated tend to be a reproduction of the preceding report. That given, I seriously would like to know who was responsible for ever letting this guy behind a wheel.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 06-23-2013
TropicCat's Avatar
Senior Pirate
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,243
Thanks: 1
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 6
TropicCat is on a distinguished road
Re: US Navy ship inquiry finished.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
The point is that she wasn't being navigated at all...simply driven between points on the chart plotter.
Well..yeah.... ever been on the bridge of a large ship at sea? That's how it's been done the last 15 years. You steer a ship with a mouse or stick, not a wheel and plot courses on your chart plotter same as we do.

Before we go down this rabbit hole, let me say that the guy was the Captain and is ultimately responsible for the safety of ship and crew. Automatically ... he is at fault.. the hearing couldn't have gone any other way.

One point on that chart plotter though. The report points out that he used two Navy issued charts for navigating those waters and that the two charts did not agree. When he plotted his course, one chart showed him clear of the reef and one showed the ship passing over the reef.

The Captain obviously flipped a coin and lost. I'd put an equal amount of blame on the command that issued those charts as that was what he was supposed to use to navigate the ship.. yet this fact hasn't been covered in this thread.

Which brings up a couple of questions..

They convicted the Captain for driving his ship on a reef. Which occurred because they plotted their course using the inaccurate set of charts. How was he supposed to know which set of issued charts was accurate?

Lastly, by finding the Captain at fault (this was non judicial, he was not found guilty), how does this prevent any other US Navy ships from grounding on the same damn reef?
__________________
Tropic Cat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 06-23-2013
paulk's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: CT/ Long Island Sound
Posts: 2,533
Thanks: 4
Thanked 20 Times in 19 Posts
Rep Power: 15
paulk is on a distinguished road
Re: US Navy ship inquiry finished.....

Flipping coins has no place in navigating. If EITHER chart showed a possible problem, the captain would have been justified in going out of his way to avoid it. If you think there might be issues because of discrepancies on charts, you have people reading soundings and forward-sonar signals especially carefully, and have other people ready to react if anything - like a reef- is reported. Coral grows almost straight up from the bottom, so you need to be on your toes. I sailed transatlantic with an ex-Navy Destroyer captain who was assigned to search atolls in the Pacific for downed pilots at the end of WW II. He said the standing order was to proceed at flank speed on the given course to the next atoll, and when the depthsounder showed something like 2000 feet, to execute an immediate emergency full right rudder and stop engines. They'd be 500 feet from the island.
oldfurr likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 06-24-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
AKscooter is on a distinguished road
Re: US Navy ship inquiry finished.....

If the ex captain was relying on electronic nav slaved to electronic charts as his sole nav aids then he is part of a larger problem with many boaters today. You correlate your position with known visible waypoints/other islands etc. (He was in an area that has roughly 10,000 islands) Ignoring alarm signals of his equipment, disregarding rules, regulations etc. Totally believable as he ran aground due many such factors. Including ignoring all the layers of personnel below him whose sole job is to navigate, stand watch etc. So when a poster says herr durr it is not his fault he relied on incorrect electronic charts given to him and then he ran onto a reef..... you think he should be cut some slack?.......please stay off the water and do your sailing dockside. If you rely only on electronic nav aids and DO NOT stand watch, refuse to correlate visible landmarks with what your charts are telling you, failing to communicate with appropriate local vessels, and ignoring authorities trying to warn you of something amiss....wow just wow.....you will sooner or later make a "mistake". At least no one died from this captains choices.
oldfurr likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 06-24-2013
TropicCat's Avatar
Senior Pirate
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,243
Thanks: 1
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 6
TropicCat is on a distinguished road
Re: US Navy ship inquiry finished.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKscooter View Post
If the ex captain was relying on electronic nav s..
With all due respect, what planet do you sail on?

All of us depend on electronic navigational charts. From container ships, cruise ships, naval ships and those of us that sail FRP boats. It's been this way since they deployed GPS satellites. I keep paper charts only as a backup, as does every other sailor I know. Paper charts and sextants have been backup items for over a decade.

Now having said this, it's irrelevant to this discussion as this case has nothing to do with a chart plotter. Presented with conflicting charts, had the Captain plotted his course using the paper charts and still run aground, the inquiry result would not have changed one bit. Any boat hits anything other than waves, it's the Captain's fault.

This story is about conflicting Naval charts and blind luck or rather bad luck.
__________________
Tropic Cat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
US Navy ship strikes reef because of incorrect charts BarryL General Discussion (sailing related) 87 04-10-2013 12:58 PM
Navy sailing toward a 300-ship fleet NewsReader News Feeds 0 03-17-2012 11:40 AM
U.S. navy: nuclear sub, ship collide in Strait of Hormuz aeisbren General Discussion (sailing related) 9 03-21-2009 01:38 PM
War Protest Intensifies, but Navy Ship Sails on Time (New York Times) NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-02-2006 12:15 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:33 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.