Is external rudder a good idea? - Page 2 - SailNet Community
 41Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 57 Old 07-03-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 434
Thanks: 0
Thanked 25 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: Is external rudder a good idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
Its bad for ocean and blue water cruises.
You are not getting proper responses...

I have not heard that an outboard rudder affects sailing capabilities or trim. I have over 40K ocean miles with an outboard rudder and it can not get any simpler.
  • One less hole under the boat
  • Simple arrangement, simple to fix
  • Easy if mounting a wind-vane or autopilot
  • Etc, Etc.

Unfortunately when I was looking for my next boat with an outboard ruder I had to compromise as they are hard to come by at 30 feet plus, but my preference is still valid.
SVTatia is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 57 Old 07-03-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 434
Thanks: 0
Thanked 25 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: Is external rudder a good idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisscross View Post
I like transom mounted rudders - they are simple, and when properly mounted - very reliable. The only downside tends to be weather helm when sailing to weather, but if the tiller is long enough that is not a big problem.
You mean that by fixing the tiller you reduced weather helm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisscross View Post
Transom mounted rudder makes it harder to steer (especially in strong wind when going upwind) compared to all other types of rudders. That can be counteracted to some degree by reducing sail area and having a long tiller. .
Krisscross, I am not sure if this is correct - that is not a rudder type problem, its a small tiller, no?
SVTatia is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #13 of 57 Old 07-03-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 279
Thanks: 1
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Is external rudder a good idea?

Or alternatively to make it easier to steer, just balance your rudder some, ie. have some of the rudder forward of the pivot axis. This is the only real reason that they are harder to steer, all (probably?) spade rudders are balanced to some degree which is what makes a tiller steered boat with a spade rudder have a lighter feel.

Weather helm is a product of sail placement, trim, and hull form to some degree. There isn't an inherent reason why a transom hung rudder will display more weather helm, it is just that most of them are not balanced to any real degree so have a harder feel. And they are more susceptible to following seas banging them around but not a whole heck of a lot more.

So KrissKross, if you ever build a new rudder, balance it by putting some of the area forward of the pivot and you'll be amazed how much more lively it feels. Then make it a nice NACA 0012 foil and you'll also be amazed at the low speed responsiveness.
tschmidty is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #14 of 57 Old 07-03-2013
Mechsmith
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Almost Heaven West Virginia
Posts: 239
Thanks: 1
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Is external rudder a good idea?

Weather helm is a function of how the rudder is hung. If the extended line through the center of the hinges goes through the effective center of of the rudder there will be no weather helm.

This is difficult to do with some hull designs. A balancing tab on a skeg or keel mounted rudder would be a good crab pot catcher.
Andrew65 and Brent Swain like this.

Seafarer 29 KCB
Mechsmith is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #15 of 57 Old 07-03-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 279
Thanks: 1
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Is external rudder a good idea?

Not exactly, a HEAVY helm which is CAUSED by weather helm is a product of what you said. Even a perfectly balanced rudder can still have weather helm, which is the boat turning into the wind. The placement of the rudder can affect weather helm, but not the actual balancing part of it.
tschmidty is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #16 of 57 Old 07-03-2013 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Morild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Aabenraa, Denmark
Posts: 113
Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Is external rudder a good idea?

Thanks a lot for all the useful information.
It doesnt have a skeg, but a little of the rudder area is in front of the pivot-axis.
You can see it on the drawings here:
NORDSHIP 808 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Morild is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #17 of 57 Old 07-03-2013
Senior Member
 
krisscross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 2,897
Thanks: 29
Thanked 156 Times in 155 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Is external rudder a good idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTatia View Post
You mean that by fixing the tiller you reduced weather helm?

Krisscross, I am not sure if this is correct - that is not a rudder type problem, its a small tiller, no?
Longer tiller requires less force to counteract the pressure on the rudder. But the pressure increases quite a bit when the wind is very strong and I'm going to weather. Part of my particular problem is a relatively small swing keel of my boat, which causes quite a bit of leeway, requiring keeping the rudder more sideways to stay on course. So in my case it is a combined effect of several factors. I still love the fact that my transom rudder does not require a hole in my boat.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
Plato
krisscross is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #18 of 57 Old 07-03-2013
Senior Slacker
 
SlowButSteady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 4,223
Thanks: 0
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Re: Is external rudder a good idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
Its bad for ocean and blue water cruises. ...
Huh?




fryewe, StormBay and Morild like this.

Never forget them. Do something to prevent it from happening again.
Charlotte Bacon, Daniel Barden, Rachel Davino, Olivia Josephine Gay, Ana M. Marquez-Greene, Dylan Hockley, Dawn Hochsprung, Madeleine F. Hsu, Catherine V. Hubbard, Chase Kowalski, Jesse Lewis, James Mattioli , Grace McDonnell, Anne Marie Murphy, Emilie Parker, Jack Pinto, Noah Pozner, Caroline Previdi, Jessica Rekos, Avielle Richman, Lauren Rousseau, Mary Sherlach, Victoria Soto, Benjamin Wheeler, Allison N. Wyatt
SlowButSteady is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #19 of 57 Old 07-03-2013
Once known as Hartley18
 
Classic30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,179
Thanks: 52
Thanked 84 Times in 84 Posts
Rep Power: 11
   
Dock
Re: Is external rudder a good idea?

Nice boats!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a transom-mounted rudder for racing or cruising, coastal or ocean voyages - and whoever said there was knows nothing of what they speak..

There are major advantages - like less holes in the boat and the ability to repair or jury-rig something without having to haul the boat out to do so - and perhaps some minor disadvantages if you're hanging an outboard on the back also, but from a performance point of view it makes absolutely no difference at all... it simply comes down to personal preference and the abilities of the yacht's designer.

-
A bad day on a boat beats a good day in the office
Classic30 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #20 of 57 Old 07-03-2013
Sea Sprite 23 #110 (20)
 
mad_machine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Atlantic City, NJ
Posts: 3,217
Thanks: 5
Thanked 69 Times in 60 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Is external rudder a good idea?

my parents grampian had a transom hung rudder. It never got in the way of the outboard

Art Haberland
__________________

In the end all that matters is how fully you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things that did not belong to you -Buddha

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mad_machine is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seemed Like a Good Idea... Squidd Gear & Maintenance 11 04-09-2012 07:42 PM
in a storm... good or bad idea to... jobi Learning to Sail 14 07-05-2010 04:58 PM
Who thought this was a good idea? flyingwelshman General Discussion (sailing related) 14 04-08-2010 07:19 AM
Servo-rudder with tiller autopilot - a good idea? wnor Gear & Maintenance 0 09-22-2009 11:40 AM
a good food idea Tegolin Provisioning 1 06-25-2005 07:47 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome