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  #41  
Old 07-09-2013
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Re: Need Opinion: Chart plotter, north up or course up?

It is truly amazing the subjects that pop up isn't it ?

I'm north up as a consequence of paper and , well, it just seems logical. Then again coming from my admittedly somewhat addled brain that may not be an endorsement.
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Re: Need Opinion: Chart plotter, north up or course up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
For the north at the top crowd, do you have true or magnetic there?
LOL! I'll go with True, to match the way my papyrus charts are printed...

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how someone on a passage from Newport to Bermuda, for example, manages to plot their position (or that of the Gulf Stream, for that matter) every few hours, or with each change of the watch, on an upside-down copy of Chart 13003... (grin)





Good points you make about our various individual means of spatial orientation, we're all 'wired' somewhat differently, no question... Still, I tend to generally associate Heads-up with Powerboating, and North-Up with Sailing...

The reason, of course, is the vital importance to most sailors of Wind Direction in planning, and navigation... Again, perhaps it's just me, but it is SO much easier to visualize wind direction relative to the course to be sailed on a simple North-up display, than it is to go through the mental gymnastics required to calculate or estimate wind direction on what might be a constantly shifting heads-up orientation...

Yet, the ever-increasing popularity of this sort of Plug-n-Play Piloting - waypoint to waypoint, routes created and interfaced with an autopilot keeping you on the straight and narrow 'Highway' - seems to me but one more contributing factor to many of us Motoring More, and Sailing Less... (grin)



Last edited by JonEisberg; 07-09-2013 at 11:14 PM.
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Re: Need Opinion: Chart plotter, north up or course up?

I started navigating on land with the army as well. I prefer North up when navigating in the boat however, find it easier for some reason. Have no Idea why.
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Old 07-09-2013
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Re: Need Opinion: Chart plotter, north up or course up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
LOL! I'll go with True, to match the way my papyrus charts are printed...

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how someone on a passage from Newport to Bermuda, for example, manages to plot their position (or that of the Gulf Stream, for that matter) every few hours, or with each change of the watch, on an upside-down copy of Chart 13003... (grin)





Good points you make about our various individual means of spatial orientation, we're all 'wired' somewhat differently, no question... Still, I tend to generally associate Heads-up with Powerboating, and North-Up with Sailing...

The reason, of course, is the vital importance to most sailors of Wind Direction in planning, and navigation... Again, perhaps it's just me, but it is SO much easier to visualize wind direction relative to the course to be sailed on a simple North-up display, than it is to go through the mental gymnastics required to calculate or estimate wind direction on what might be a constantly shifting heads-up orientation...

Yet, the ever-increasing popularity of this sort of Plug-n-Play Piloting - waypoint to waypoint, routes created and interfaced with an autopilot keeping you on the straight and narrow 'Highway' - seems to me but one more contributing factor to many of us Motoring More, and Sailing Less... (grin)


Interesting post by killarny....I think hes on to something. Spacial orientation as well as left and right side brain use. No one uses one to the exclusion of the other, but one is generally more dominant.

Its like the sailors need it all lined up facing north or they cant get it. Linier thinkers. This is the right way beacuse thats because thats the way they learned it. They cant understand the creative thinkers perspective or even get how they can see things from another perspective ( an upside down chart for instance). If they have it properly organized it makes perfect sense. No value judgement here, just people thinking and wired differently


Then there are the sailors I will call the "free thinkers". Less apt to be confined by conventions. Can deal with multiple dimensions or things not lined up without anxiety. They cant understand the linier thinkers and see it as confined thinking. They have no problem reading the chart upside down, sideways, backwards, but feel confined by a straight up and down approach. Again no No value judgement here, just people thinking and wired differently.

Both type of thinkers can read charts perfectly fine and have no issues.
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  #45  
Old 07-10-2013
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Re: Need Opinion: Chart plotter, north up or course up?

Ironically my introduction to mapping was in Canadian Artillery. As a Technical Assistant Royal Artillery we calculated the angles, etc for the howitzers. We used a north up orientation.

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Old 07-10-2013
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Re: Need Opinion: Chart plotter, north up or course up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Linier thinkers...cant understand the creative thinkers perspective or even get how they can see things from another perspective ( an upside down chart for instance)... "free thinkers"...Less apt to be confined by conventions. Can deal with multiple dimensions or things not lined up without anxiety. They cant understand the linier thinkers and see it as confined thinking.
c2s - I don't think that's right. It's not that us linear thinkers can't understand the perspective of creative thinkers/free thinkers. It's that we can't understand why they are have so much trouble figuring out how to do things in the most EFFICIENT way. Or is that the RIGHT way?

I spent a lot of time earlier in my life teaching and being responsible for navigation of expensive boats and if called on to be able to shoot accurately at other expensive boats. Much of the navigation and targeting was done with our heads below the surface of the water. During my early years in the business we did a lot of our computations with slide rules and thumb rules. Innovations later allowed computers do most of the grunt work for both of those tasks. We found that the use of computers frequently caused loss of spatial orientation. Loss of orientation is very dangerous. Looking for a way to minimize loss of orientation we came up with a simple way to reorient the watch standers...by simply asking frequently for them to "point to North" or "point at the target." Soon the computer operators began to ask themselves these questions and they seldom lost their orientation afterwards.

It's not so much how you fold the chart or lay it down on the table (or on the screen) but whether the relationship between the geometry on the chart and the geography of your surroundings is revealed in your "mind's eye."
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  #47  
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Re: Need Opinion: Chart plotter, north up or course up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Its like the sailors need it all lined up facing north or they cant get it. Linier thinkers. This is the right way beacuse thats because thats the way they learned it. They cant understand the creative thinkers perspective or even get how they can see things from another perspective ( an upside down chart for instance). If they have it properly organized it makes perfect sense. No value judgement here, just people thinking and wired differently


Then there are the sailors I will call the "free thinkers". Less apt to be confined by conventions. Can deal with multiple dimensions or things not lined up without anxiety. They cant understand the linier thinkers and see it as confined thinking. They have no problem reading the chart upside down, sideways, backwards, but feel confined by a straight up and down approach. Again no No value judgement here, just people thinking and wired differently.

Both type of thinkers can read charts perfectly fine and have no issues.
Well, there's little doubt that with the advent of GPS, map-reading skills among the general public are in a precipitous decline...

So, would all those drivers out there riding around in Heads-Up Land who might be totally lost without their GPS, then be classified as "linear", or "creative" thinkers? (grin)

Quote:

The brain has a specialized region just for navigating the spatial environment. This structure is called the hippocampus, also known as the map reader of the brain. The hippocampus helps individuals determine where they are, how they got to that particular place, and how to navigate to the next destination. Reading maps and developing navigational skills can affect the brain in beneficial ways. In fact, using orientation and navigational skills often can actually cause the hippocampus and the brain to grow, forming more neural pathways as the number of mental maps increase.

A study by scientists at University College in London found that grey matter in the brains of taxi drivers grew and adapted to help them store detailed mental maps of the city. The drivers underwent MRI scans, and those scans showed that the taxi drivers have larger hippocampi when compared to other people. In addition, the scientists found that the more time the drivers spent on the job, the more the hippocampus changes structurally to accommodate the large amount of navigational experience. Drivers who spent more than forty years in a taxi had more developed hippocampi than those just starting out. The study shows that experience with the spatial environment and navigation can have a direct influence on the brain itself.

However, the use of modern navigational technology and smartphone apps has the potential to harm the brain depending on how it is used in today’s world. Map reading and orienteering are becoming lost arts in the world of global positioning systems and other geospatial technologies. As a result, more and more people are losing the ability to navigate and find their way in unfamiliar terrain. According to the BBC, police in northern Scotland issued an appeal for hikers to learn orienteering skills rather than relying solely on smartphones for navigation. This came after repeated rescues of lost hikers by police in Grampian, one of which included finding fourteen people using mountain rescue teams and a helicopter. The police stated that the growing use of smartphone apps for navigation can lead to trouble because people become too dependent on technology without understanding the tangible world around them.

At McGill University, researchers did a series of three studies on the effects of using GPS devices on the brain. The scientists wanted to measure the brain activity of people while using two methods that humans employ when navigating. The first method is called spatial navigation, and this is where landmarks are used to build those cognitive maps that help us determine where we are in a particular environment. The second is called stimulus-response. In this situation, humans run on auto-pilot mode and retrace their steps according to repetition. For example, taking the same route home from work becomes second nature after a while, and sooner or later you find yourself retracing the route out of habit, not thinking about how you got home. Researchers claimed that this mode is more closely related to the way a GPS is used to navigate.

What researchers found was significant in terms of how spatial orientation affects the brain. After performing fMRI (functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging) scans on people using both of those strategies, the individuals that used a spatial navigation strategy had an increased activity in the hippocampus. Conversely, they found that using a GPS excessively might to lead to atrophy in the hippocampus as a person ages, and this could put them at higher risk for cognitive diseases later in life. One of these diseases might be Alzheimer’s which impairs the hippocampus and leads to problems with spatial orientation and memory. Researchers also found a greater volume of grey matter in those who used spatial navigation, and this group scored higher on standardized cognition tests than those who used the other strategy. The results of this study demonstrate that using orienteering and building cognitive maps might be better for the brain than using a GPS.

Spatial Orientation and the Brain: The Effects of Map Reading and Navigation - GIS Lounge
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Old 07-10-2013
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Re: Need Opinion: Chart plotter, north up or course up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, there's little doubt that with the advent of GPS, map-reading skills among the general public are in a precipitous decline...

So, would all those drivers out there riding around in Heads-Up Land who might be totally lost without their GPS, then be classified as "linear", or "creative" thinkers? (grin)

This says the man with the computer, I pad, tablet or smart phone

That's the problem Jon, they are both and they are neither, just like the dinosaurs who are afraid to depend on a GPS device who think some day a EMP will wipe out all the satellites all at once.

Why is it so important to have map reading skills Jon, they are becoming obsolete except for the water where its a needed skill still? It isn't a necessary skill on land anymore for most people. It doesn't mean they are lost either. Time marches on as does the world. People don't forage for food anymore. It allows them do do things like deliver boats, become rocket scientists, CHefs, teachers, accountants. Time marches on.

March with it or get left behind and perish with he dinosours. grin
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  #49  
Old 07-10-2013
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Re: Need Opinion: Chart plotter, north up or course up?

And then, if you're doing the ICW using those full-size Maptech chart books (Regions 6 and 7, if you're shopping for them) this whole discussion falls apart, because those chart books just present the segments of the NOAA charts that show the ICW ... course up. So to have your chartplotter match your paper charts you'd set it ... course up. Wind direction? Doesn't matter, you go where the daymarks tell you there's water...
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Old 07-10-2013
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Re: Need Opinion: Chart plotter, north up or course up?

One reason I tend to like the N up orientation is because my Garmin unit sometimes rotates the view around too much if in track-up mode. When figuring out the heading while maneuvering, say, through a set of buoys, it can rotate the screen around. With North-up this does not happen. It also doesn't happen on the paper chart.

I can think of no task more useless and boring than using the "highway" screen on a GPS. What a great challenge to squint at a freakin' digital screen to stay on the "highway" while ignoring the real world around you.
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