Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS? - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree6Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 07-21-2013
davidpm's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madison
Posts: 3,653
Thanks: 160
Thanked 36 Times in 29 Posts
Rep Power: 7
davidpm is on a distinguished road
Re: Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwindward View Post
A secondary consideration is I think it's possible that the $4K is larger than it might need to be because it was specifically estimated as "an insurance job." I definitely need the work, because it's a major seaworthiness issue. But maybe if the job manager knew I was going to foot it myself, he could find a way to make it cheaper, possibly by cutting out the cosmetic portions of it, or letting me do some of the work. I'm not exactly sure how to bring this up, but I don't see any other way out.
I think you are onto something here.

One way to motivate him would be to muse out loud how because of your extra expenses you were thinking of taking the cash and selling the boat as is and worry about boats next year.
__________________
The lesson from the Icarus story is not about human failing.
It is a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive.
If you have an engineering problem solve it.

Last edited by davidpm; 07-21-2013 at 09:55 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 07-22-2013
Learning to sail
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 113
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
aaronwindward is on a distinguished road
Re: Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?

So after getting advice here, and elsewhere, and speaking with an adjuster, I decided to cancel the claim with BoatUS, because the claim basically takes me to a place that isn't where I want to be. I guess all of the complications in a CTL situation on a non-expensive hull boils down to this: Do I consider the hull to be a total loss? If not, don't file a claim, because what that does is tell the insurance company that you think it is, and you'd like to sell the boat to the company for its value.

Based on my conversation with the adjuster, I get away mostly free, and this shouldn't cause my rates to go up, or cause me to lose my 'no claims' status. However, the underwriters may want to know more about the outcome of this when it comes time to reevaluate the policy; the latter I suspect is no big deal, since I'm planning a complete repair.

Going forward, I think the simple reality is that I need to accept "minor" damage like this as just cost-of-hobby or wear-and-tear, despite the fact it wouldn't normally be viewed that way.

That leaves me with two problems, which I think are much more minor than the problems I would have had if I had proceeded with the claim:

1) Figure out where to get an unbudgeted $4000 from. (I have another $3000 of unexpected expenses rolling around as well, in addition to the other multi-thousand planned yard expenses, so I'm in a slightly tight spot. Clearly I need to keep a bigger buffer around for these sorts of things.)
2) Reevaluate my insurance coverage, and try to get it into a place that makes more sense for what I need.

I'm still planning on posting pics; I'm just really busy trying to get all of the other yard-related work on track.
MedSailor likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 07-22-2013
chucklesR's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Pasadena Md - Magothy side
Posts: 5,958
Thanks: 10
Thanked 30 Times in 30 Posts
Rep Power: 9
chucklesR is a jewel in the rough chucklesR is a jewel in the rough chucklesR is a jewel in the rough
Re: Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimsCAL View Post
Sounds like you should just have liability insurance. As has been suggested, work with BoatUS and get this resolved. Then drop the hull insurance. And since you seem willing to pay for the repair, don't see why you can't begin working on the repair to get back in the water ASAP.
Absolutely, if you can do it, just do it yourself, drop the claim and get back on the water for 800 in material and a couple of weekends of time.
__________________
Lessons learned are opportunities earned.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 07-22-2013
deniseO30's Avatar
Move over Joan Rivers!
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bristol pa
Posts: 5,875
Thanks: 51
Thanked 72 Times in 64 Posts
Rep Power: 9
deniseO30 will become famous soon enough deniseO30 will become famous soon enough
Re: Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?

"Figure out where to get an unbudgeted $4000 from. I have another $3000 of unexpected expenses rolling around as well, in addition to the other multi-thousand planned yard expenses, so I'm in a slightly tight spot. Clearly I need to keep a bigger buffer around for these sorts of things."

On a A 70s something Ericsson 27?

Clearly, your either obsessed with paying for EVERYTHING boat related or you can't/won't/don't know how work on your own boat and do your own repairs.

Get rid of the boat!

Be happy.
__________________
Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club. New Website!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

my current "project"!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 07-22-2013
MedSailor's Avatar
Closet Powerboater
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Anacortes PNW
Posts: 2,393
Thanks: 58
Thanked 50 Times in 42 Posts
Rep Power: 7
MedSailor is on a distinguished road
Re: Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwindward View Post
1) Figure out where to get an unbudgeted $4000 from.
Hey, if you are sucessful with this, can you post a how-to (with pictures and diagrams) so we can make it a sticky on SailNet?


Glad to hear that things are looking up!

MedSailor
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I have a sauna on my boat, therefore I win.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 07-22-2013
CalebD's Avatar
Tartan 27' owner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,504
Thanks: 4
Thanked 83 Times in 76 Posts
Rep Power: 7
CalebD will become famous soon enough
Re: Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?

Probably smart to drop the claim and avoid the dreaded "CTL" clauses.
However, you will pay through the nose and wait forever for your "yard people" to do the work for you. Just ask Jimgo from PA/NJ, or better yet see his current thread called "I'm probably not supposed to own a boat" - or something like that.

I'm almost surprised this hasn't been asked before: What did you run into on the water to cause this damage?
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water~ sweat, tears, or the sea." ~Isak Denesen

Everybody has one:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 07-23-2013
Learning to sail
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 113
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
aaronwindward is on a distinguished road
Exclamation Unexpected BoatUS telephone call: The adjuster urges me to submit a claim

There's been a really interesting development here; after canceling the claim over the weekend, I considered the matter closed.

But BoatUS didn't; the adjuster originally assigned to my claim called me today in the early afternoon, and suggested that his opinion was that I should continue with the claim. Maybe that's understating it a little bit; he urged me very strongly to continue with the claims process, and see what it might do for me.

I explained to him my concerns, about losing insurance, and the time delay. I told him the outcome I wanted: to continue to be insured, and to get my boat back in the water and sailing. He was very non-committal, but he said that he felt that there was probably some way we could come to some agreement that was satisfactory; he also said there was a good chance of avoiding CTL. He wouldn't say anything about how this might affect the future of my policy, but he encouraged me to talk to an underwriter about it.

In total, the 20 minutes on the unexpected call was an extremely surprising experience. It's too early for me to pass judgment on BoatUS, but I think it is apparent that BoatUS is not your typical insurance company. Who has ever heard of a situation where an insurance company could pass up a chance to pay out a few thousand, but instead actively advocates to for the opportunity to pay?

I asked the adjuster to explain this obviously backward situation. He said, loosely quoting, "we're all boaters here," and that BoatUS just wants to do the right thing, for the sake of boating. I think I'll let time tell whether that's actually the case, and proceed with my claim.

I hope the yard and surveyor won't be overly annoyed at me waffling; I also hope they haven't actually begun any relevant work, since I haven't checked in with them today!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 07-23-2013
Learning to sail
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 113
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
aaronwindward is on a distinguished road
Re: Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
I'm almost surprised this hasn't been asked before: What did you run into on the water to cause this damage?
It is hard for me to fully express how upsetting to me the lapse of seamanship that caused the accident is. I don't know how it could be more personally embarrassing. It wasn't a case of my lack of knowledge or mistaken judgment; I just screwed up and bad things happened.

I hit a navigational buoy.

There. Let mocking and disapproving consternation begin. I deserve it. I can't think of anything that's a bigger screw up on the water than to hit a huge red steel navigational aid that's designed to prevent you from hitting things.

There's a bit more to it than that. I was on the water for the opening day of Louis Vuitton Cup (America's Cup) racing, as a spectator. That area of water is pretty open, with no geographic hazards to a vessel of my size. However, there were a ton of boats on the water, in a relatively small space outside of the regulated area. A lot of boats were late to the show, and were trying to get into position as quickly as possible so they wouldn't miss anything. My boat is smallish for the SF Bay, and so I had the sails up to try to keep the chop as comfortable as possible. (Motoring into the chop is uncomfortable, and drifting would not have been safe; the sails and heeling help steady the rolling and pitching.)

It was before the "race" had begun, and I was having to do a good bit of navigation to stay clear of all of the other traffic. I must have seen the buoy, but somehow, I simply did not process it, and did not identify it as a threat. I was so fixated on avoiding the boats around me, that somehow I simply didn't notice it until the bow slammed into it.

There was one crew member on deck as well at the time, but their view on the buoy immediately before the accident was partially obstructed by the jib.

It also wasn't like I wasn't aware the buoy was there. The chartplotter was on and functioning, and within my view, and I was actively using it to try to stay in the correct zone.

After a quick damage assessment, we determined the damage was minor enough that we didn't need to take emergency actions. Right as the race started, the boat traffic really quieted down, as people stopped racing all over, and started watching the race. After it was over, we took an unplanned stop in the City to inspect the damage at the dock and "cool off;" then made the ~25 nm trip back home.

I've attached damage photos. Note that the hull-to-deck joint damage is somewhat subtle, which is why I didn't notice it at first, but visible on the delamination on the inside. The full extent might not be obvious until the rub rail comes off.
Attached Thumbnails
Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?-impact_closeup.jpg   Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?-inside_collision.jpg   Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?-inside_joint.jpg   Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?-outside_bow.jpg  
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 07-23-2013
Learning to sail
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 113
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
aaronwindward is on a distinguished road
Re: Did I make a mistake in reporting a claim to BoatUS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deniseO30 View Post
"Figure out where to get an unbudgeted $4000 from. I have another $3000 of unexpected expenses rolling around as well, in addition to the other multi-thousand planned yard expenses, so I'm in a slightly tight spot. Clearly I need to keep a bigger buffer around for these sorts of things."

On a A 70s something Ericsson 27?

Clearly, your either obsessed with paying for EVERYTHING boat related or you can't/won't/don't know how work on your own boat and do your own repairs.

Get rid of the boat!

Be happy.
I appreciate the advice, even though it seems a little harsh. However, I think there's another perspective.

All of the costs in question are primarily "labor." That means I'm paying an hourly rate for a qualified person to complete the work. Good boatyard rates are high, but I believe that is because their skill, expertise, and experience is very valuable.

I understand this, because I am also have very special, valuable skills, although not in marine work; my personal rate, at which I value my time, is actually not far off from the yard rate. My time isn't free, and it is a huge economic miscalculation to take it to be. In fact, I tend to be so focused on my work that my time scarce free time seems especially valuable. Even though I enjoy working on my boat, I also enjoy sailing the boat, and I enjoy being with my friends and the rest of my life, not all of which is sailing-related. In more concrete financial terms, you call this 'opportunity cost.'

I've done fiberglass work on my boat before, and I know enough to know I don't have nearly the skill in fiberglass to be able to do the repair at even a large fraction of the man-hours that experienced professionals can. In the amount of time that repair would take me, I can earn far more doing something I'm actually especially good at. Therefore I would call this a 'false economy,' and it's a very expensive false economy at that, figuratively throwing money away.

A while back I read this story in print, of which I barely remember the details: (I can't remember the author! Maybe someone will recognize it.) This guy from Sausalito got this sailboat, and very publicly was spending all of this time refinishing it, and the time be put into his boat was admirable. But he never sailed it. Well one day he did, with some friends who took him out, and he hated it, and the ending is sad.

I recognize those people on these forums too. They're the ones engaging in time-consuming and complicated improvements, who advocate aggressive and expansive maintenance schedules. Key topics are removing deck hardware, repainting, revarnishing, teak plugs, and fond recommendations of cabinet scrapers. I'd never want to criticize how someone spends their free time, because that's up to them, and I respect that. I even have a varnish job on my kitchen table right now, and it's not exactly my first one.

But that's not me. I'd rather be sailing.

Give up my boat? Not on my life; go get your own boat!
davidpm and Morild like this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 08-02-2013
Learning to sail
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 113
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
aaronwindward is on a distinguished road
Update: Settlement, everything seems OK

Like people in this thread mention, BoatUS is actually pretty reasonable to talk to. Several times during this claim I've basically just called BoatUS and basically said 'let me talk to someone' and there was someone to talk to, even on the weekends. Now, I keep strange hours, and I'm on the West Coast (and BoatUS is on the East Coast), so I find having to call within business hours still a bit annoying, but it's probably about as good as it's going to get.

Once I let the adjuster resume the claim, they were pretty quick about getting the boat surveyed, and I actually got a settlement offer the same week. I spoke to both adjusters and underwriters at BoatUS, and my understanding is that despite the large claim, it is unlikely that a single claim from someone who's been insured with them a while will cause insurance to be cancelled. (A few thousand dollars on a hull is apparently not actually that large of a claim for them.)

BoatUS deserves a lot of credit for making things go really well. But there were two factors that saved the hull from being a total loss, that were mostly just luck:

1. BoatUS has a significant materials depreciation schedule, and for a boat as old as mine, depreciation is 90%, meaning that BoatUS only pays 10% of the materials in repairs. Normally, I think this would undesirable, and perhaps an unexpected surprise, but it kept the actual pay-out cost away from the CTL cut-off value.

2. The boat is probably under-insured, so the insured value is actually much less than the value the boat surveys for; this probably wasn't as big of a factor, but I get the impression that it means the boat would have been harder to CTL even on a somewhat larger payout.

So, I had the yard start the work, and supposedly, 'the check's in the mail.'

Assuming everything works out, BoatUS has actually really saved my skin here. The unexpected cost if I had had to pay this myself would have majorly messed up my other improvement plans while at the boat yard, and I was super worried about that. They basically talked me into pursuing the claim, and as far as I can tell, I won't lose my insurance and everything will continue to be OK.

I'm glad I ended up trusting the adjuster! When have you ever heard that before?

Obviously I'll yelp if something somehow goes wrong here, but it's looking like BoatUS did really good for me, and went above the call of duty. I also got the impression that even if circumstances hadn't have worked out so favorably, BoatUS still would have worked with me to find a way to make this work.

Once everything with the claim is history, and the boat is back on the water, the first thing I'm going to do is upgrade to BoatUS's more expensive yacht policy, and correct my underinsurance situation. (That's not possible to do on the "Saver" policy.)
davidpm likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Day Dreamer reporting in! straaj04 Introduce Yourself 0 09-04-2009 07:05 PM
Seatow or BoatUS better in Buzzards Bay ? LookingForCruiser General Discussion (sailing related) 4 05-26-2009 03:18 AM
COMMENT: Five Years On, Resistance to Ohrid is Dead (Institute for War and Peace Reporting) NewsReader News Feeds 0 08-07-2006 07:15 PM
MovieTickets.com Reporting Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest is Sailing Past X-Men: The Last Stand as 2006's (SYS-CON Media) NewsReader News Feeds 0 07-07-2006 06:15 PM
West, BoatUS Merger simbar General Discussion (sailing related) 5 01-23-2003 09:23 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:28 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.