Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world - Page 2 - SailNet Community
 55Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 124 Old 07-22-2013
Picnic Sailor
 
chall03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,785
Thanks: 23
Thanked 26 Times in 22 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Will design for food.
In steel???

'Life is either a daring adventure or nothing' - Helen Keller



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
chall03 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 124 Old 07-22-2013
Senior Member
 
JulieMor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 853
Thanks: 47
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
WHAT?!? You mean those marina queens are intended to be SAILED???
Haven't you seen the pictures? You know, the ones where the guy from the "Hair color for men" commercial is at the helm and the rest of the crew are his granddaughters and their friends.

On a more serious note, a recent ad in SAIL had Beneteau describing their Sense as having "cat like" qualities. The room of a catamaran and the sailability of a monohull. Beneteau owns Jeanneau and Lagoon too. It's easy to see where they are going.
ShoalFinder likes this.
JulieMor is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #13 of 124 Old 07-22-2013 Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

To deniceO30 If you read it once more slowly you might understand the rant, and get the general picture of a safe boat that is easy to handle.
To Jeff H Why roly motion? As you very well know there are different types of motion behavior depending on the design. There is no such thing as a good, hobby-horsing motion. Most of todayís boats fall under motion category stress and diabetes. I believe that we were talking FLD Family cruiser for long distances. They come closer to reflecting out of date dogma rather than reflecting the science behind yacht design. Sorry to have to tell you that the science of todayís only reflect the racing rules. Has it ever occurred to you that actually were a Fastnet race tragedy? Something classified as a giant dhingy is not what Iím looking for. The Vikings designed that type a long time agoo, and they were good for real speed.
To Jon Eisberg It is the yacht designer, that creates building specification, and so forth. It is up to him to check, that the yard actually follow up on his specification, and isnít trying to save money through weaker constructions. There is usually a binding contract between the parties. They donít want it because it is too expensive. With todayís global economy it only needs one yard, that can produce a long serie of a yacht. Picture windows, what does that has to do with safety thinking?
To LinekinBayCD ďI chartered 33' & 35' Scanmars circa 1980Ē, good for you. If you had bought one you would by now know, that the fastening of the keel and the GRP specification, has a lot more to desire.
To TDW It seems to me that there are more nutrients needed, both minerals and vitamins.
To Bob Perry I know you design for food, but a bottle of bubbles wonít hurt you.As I see it there is a lot of conservatism among the yacht designers of the world. Everyone tries to copy a selling idea into his own project. It is now time to think beyond the Viking freighter. A yacht that is safe with a hobby-horsing that is gentle to all of the crew. The problem for you is that you need to find a yard with ultra-modern manufacturing technique.
To Julie More Iím positive to your thinking but it is not only a question of the cockpit area. Many injuries is due to the fact of foul weather trousers is missing in the pantry. And this has to do with yacht motions.
To Chall03 We have already established that steel is out of the question due to its weight.
Grona hisse is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #14 of 124 Old 07-22-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,228
Thanks: 1
Thanked 101 Times in 97 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Groans:
" It is now time to think beyond the Viking freighter."

Apparently you are not very familiar with the range of my designs. I have designed a few "Viking freighters" in my time but I have also designed boats that over the last few years have been winning the Swiftsure Race consistantly including ICON, NIGHT RUNNER and the FD10m. You could hardly find a more diverse group of fast boats and none of them could ever be considered "Viking freighters". Your overall view seems a bit myopic to me.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bobperry is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #15 of 124 Old 07-22-2013
HANUMAN
 
RobGallagher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Noank, Connecticut, USA
Posts: 1,540
Thanks: 7
Thanked 30 Times in 29 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

100K for a decent specimen in that lovely design of yesteryear and another 150K (+/- 150K) for a complete refit and you have a new boat.

Or, as Bob Perry has offered, for the price of more than one large pizza you will get a design that has everything you want. Take it to the builder of your choice. You will have everything you ever wanted.

I think your real problem, the one you are not telling us about, is money.

It's OK, most of us have the same problem.
Dog8It and captain jack like this.

HANUMAN
'88 C&C 30 MKII
NOANK, CT
RobGallagher is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #16 of 124 Old 07-22-2013
Senior Member
 
manatee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: S.E. Florida
Posts: 1,033
Thanks: 23
Thanked 83 Times in 71 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Quote:
If I suggest a Colin Archer design, so all laughs.Everybody knows that it is heavy and slow. 9 knots with a CA40 is not so bad? When Colin Archer designed his yachts they had to be seaworthy and able to withstand foul weather. Everyone knows that he succeeded.
"I've always loved the Colin Archer and Bill Atkin double enders but they are expensive and difficult to build and there was no way, especially back when I was a young guy chomping at the bit to 'get out there' that I could ever afford to buy one, nor did I have the skills to build one. But I loved the look.

The solution was what I now call my Vagabond boats; double enders, low and sleek, cutter rigged. I think these boats are the essence of the ocean cruising sailboat; sort of the 'Volksboat' or "Every Man's" cruiser. They ARE obtainable, if you have the energy, or perhaps courage is a better word, to get off your tail and do it. The original was a 26' cutter, the first JUNO." ~ George Buehler

George Buehler Yacht Design Home Page

=====================
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
=====================
"The skipper should be the calmest person on board. It is good for the morale of those around you. However, if everyone around you is frightened then be aware of the possibility that they know something you donít."

~~Dylan Winter,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

=====================
manatee is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #17 of 124 Old 07-22-2013
Senior Member
 
Sabreman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Yeocomico River, VA
Posts: 1,643
Thanks: 3
Thanked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Rep Power: 10
   
Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Ummm..... I'm having a difficult time understanding the rant, it's not very specific while using a lot of words. Can the OP provide an example of a boat that they consider acceptable? Spray, perhaps?

Personally, I find the characteristics of modern hull design to be an amazing evolution of science and materials technology. The reality is that boats suffer far less breakage at sea than ever before. And while we may read of a few examples of accidents at sea each year, considering the sheer volume of boats on the water, technology has made coastal and offshore boating far faster and safer than when I started in the 1970's.

Speaking of the 70's, I worked a few boat shows for two Catalina dealers. Almost without exception, people coming aboard a boat dive below to look at the accommodations. Very few spend more than a few moments on deck. That was 40 years ago, people are people and it has nothing to do with "modern" design or "modern" desires... unless modern is defined as anything more recent than 1960.

Sabre 38 "Victoria"
Sabreman is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #18 of 124 Old 07-22-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 283
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Heres a real modern Norse 'freighter';
Home
PCP likes this.
jak3b is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #19 of 124 Old 07-22-2013
Once known as Hartley18
 
Classic30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,796
Thanks: 45
Thanked 65 Times in 65 Posts
Rep Power: 9
   
Dock
Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
Haven't you seen the pictures? You know, the ones where the guy from the "Hair color for men" commercial is at the helm and the rest of the crew are his granddaughters and their friends.
Yeah... but I thought they were only motoring - into the sunset in <5kts and flat water.

-
"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"
Classic30 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #20 of 124 Old 07-22-2013
Moderator
 
Jeff_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,894
Thanks: 5
Thanked 147 Times in 120 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grona hisse View Post
To Jeff H Why roly motion? As you very well know there are different types of motion behavior depending on the design.
When you talk about traditional designs, its hard to avoid large roll angles. The comparatively high vertical centers of gravity and low centers of buoyancy meant that there was comparatively little dampening, and the heavy spars meant that there were large roll moments of inertia carried up high creating the likelihood of excitation rolling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grona hisse View Post
There is no such thing as a good, hobby-horsing motion. Most of todayís boats fall under motion category stress and diabetes. I believe that we were talking FLD Family cruiser for long distances.
It sounds like we agree that there is no such thing as good hobby-horsing. I don't know what the sentence about modern boatss falling in a category of stress and diabetes. Its not really English. But within the realm of moderately conservative modern design, the have been huge advances in addressing motion comfort, boats which roll and pitch at slower rates and through smaller roll angles than more traditional designs, which is not to say that there aren't also stripped out race boats and more agressive designs with less comfortable motions. These more conservative modern designs work well as family cruisers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grona hisse View Post
To Jeff H They come closer to reflecting out of date dogma rather than reflecting the science behind yacht design. Sorry to have to tell you that the science of todayís only reflect the racing rules. Has it ever occurred to you that actually were a Fastnet race tragedy?
I am very familiar with the lessons of the Fastnet Tragedy and the huge advances in scientific understanding which has occurred in the 34 years since. While race boats tend to reflect the racing rules, and there are aspects of cruising designs that are derived from the lessons learned from race boats, for the most part the design of modern boats largely reflect the lessons learned from the Fastnet and the scientific studies which followed. These newer boats are safer, easier to handle, often have more comfortable motions and are faster than anything which came before. You should try to learn about the science behind the better of these designs, and spend time sailing boats of a variety of periods before condemning them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grona hisse View Post
To Jeff H The Vikings designed that type a long time ago, and they were good for real speed.
The Viking ships were amazing technology for the bronze age. They were ingenious and fast for their time. But they required large crews to operate, went missing routinely, and took enormous skill and strength to sail. They were dog slow in most conditions compared to modern designs, had limited up wind capabilities, and would be very limited as a family cruiser. The bronze age was a long time ago and a lot has happened since....

Respectfully,
Jeff
Sabreman and chef2sail like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay
Jeff_H is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
*An open letter to boat sellers* Mimsy General Discussion (sailing related) 41 04-17-2009 11:18 PM
An Open Letter to Peter Harris, President/CEO of West Marine, Inc. SabreCantabile General Discussion (sailing related) 72 12-13-2007 03:15 PM
Pindar Open 60 arrives in Dickenson Bay @ Sail World UK NewsReader News Feeds 0 04-11-2006 08:15 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome