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  #31  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Love those chusions Jak.

Out:
I don't think Mr. Groan wants to see the light. I think he wants to see the heavy.

I've done it all. The alu cutter YONI, 50'LOA, weighed 50,000 lbs. with 20,000 lbs. lead. It wasn't exactly what I wanted but I designed it for a repeat client who I knew was very fixed in his requirements and,,,a good friend. I truly appreciate you pushing Mr. Grona towards me but tend to think he's not ready yet.
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  #32  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Out:
I want clients that are open to my ideas and respect my ideas.,
I guess I won't be hiring you for that carbon fiber Jacuzzi with a tiller, wet bar, pulsating shower head, trampoline and permanent 20 degree angle of heel.

It's all about my needs. Just ask my last 10 girlfriends.
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  #33  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

I like girlfriends.
I like tillers.
I like girfriends.
I'm totally down with pulsating.

My left knee has been pulsating all day.
I just need someone to get it in sync with.
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  #34  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I like girlfriends.
I like tillers.
I like girfriends.
I'm totally down with pulsating.

My left knee has been pulsating all day.
I just need someone to get it in sync with.

I know a girl...

This could go so off topic...
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  #35  
Old 07-24-2013
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Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

To bobperry
Re. Yoni
Let us have an open discussion. You may and should correct me, if I’m wrong in my remarks.
The thinking behind you and your client’s thinking seems to co-inside with my thinking of a good offshore yacht. Is this remotely anything you would design for yourself without client wishes? We are now talking serious offshore sailing.
I must confess that she is staggeringly beautiful. However I have some possible safety features that I would like to take up in this forum.
The keel weight ratio? Heavier than 45 percent.
Keel fins?
The third of the front isn’t V-shaped enough. And evidently she will pound into the waves.
Vent hole in the hull – a matter of safety.
Sincerely
Big windows, in the deck salon, a matter of safety.
On vital item is missing, i.e. the solid link between the keel and the mast on deck …
The rudder isn’t balanced.
The skeg for course stability is missing, the rudder fens is too small. They all interact with each other.
Finally! Aluminum vs Aluminum-composite as building material, a comparing study hard to find on Internet. What are your thoughts?
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  #36  
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Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

To Jeff H
It is shorly a lot easier to comment the writer than the facts.
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Old 07-24-2013
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Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Mr. Grona:

No YONI is not what I would design for myself. It's way too elaborate a boat for me. I'm a man of very simple needs so long as they include a good dog and a great hi-fi.

You make a number of errors in your assessment of YONI:
Ballast to displ is 40% and that is more than sufficient.
Limit of positive stability is 134 degs.
Yes, the keel is a straight fin just as it should be.
The hull has high deadrise from amidships forward. It is very V-ed. Client requirement.
I have no idea what a "vent hole" in the hull is. It does not sound like someting i would want. What are you venting? I like to vent but I usually do it over on Cruising Anarchy.
Big windows are .25" safety glass. More than adequate.
The mast is stepped on the keel as the drawing clearly shows. There is an elaborate alu framework to spread out the mast loads. That's one of the beauties of alu construction.
Yes, the rudder is not balannced. Client requirement.
There is a large skeg (what boat are you looking at?)
I have no idea what a "rudder fens" is. Can you explain please?

YONI is all alu and not composite.
WILD HORSES is an alu hull with a composite GRP and carbon fibre deck. I would call that composite.
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  #38  
Old 07-24-2013
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Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grona hisse View Post
To Jeff H
It is shorly a lot easier to comment the writer than the facts.
This quote clearly demonstrates the point that you are trying to make in your quote. Instead of addressing the technical points that I raised, you are attempting to dismiss the writer, which you are correct, has proven to be very consistent with your arguing style.

But in any event, I do admit that I am a slightly guilty of the same crime in that I have commented both on the technical aspects of your discussion points in moderate detail in my post (#20), and on the apparent nature of your comments as a preamble to my comments in post #29.

And while I would be delighted to have a discussion of the technical issues with you, it does not change the fact that your comments so far seem to be poised in a way where meaningful discourse is discouraged, and instead seem to be seeking validation for your opinions by aggressively dismissing anyone who tries to engage in meaningful, if contrary, dialogue with you.

Still, the majority of my comments even in post #29 are intended to assist you in better understanding the nature of what you are proposing by suggesting that you spend some time learning about the current state of yacht design and construction so that you make less anachronistic statements. (i.e. Your condern about composites blistering. Blistering has not been a problem with the better yards in decades.)

Jeff
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  #39  
Old 07-24-2013
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Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

Grona- Just curious. ?Have you done any blue water? Have you spoken with and picked the brains of folks who have ? I tried to do due diligence before building my current boat. Most all the folks I spoke with who have actually "been there and done that" don't share your views on ballast ratios, hull shape, appendages etc. ?Must be a reason? Had pleasure of input from folks who could have designed and built or bought what they wanted. This is not a conspiracy by production boat builders. I grant you many do not go to the large production builders for voyaging boats but those who don't still don't build the boat you envision. ?Why?
Excessive ballast slows the boat down, requires larger rig/sail plan making for less safety, may require powered aids to sail and high ballast/displacement ratio may have negative impact on comfort motion. Your fixation on ballast ratio is misplaced. Agree that ability to resist turning turtle and staying there is important but this single number is not. Positive stability and area under the curve are more relevant.
Full keel may have negative impact on sailing ability- both pointing and wetted surface.
Non balanced rudder increases forces required to steer fatiguing autopilot or helmsman and likely will increase parasitic drag.
Many factors of which the rudder is only one go into ability of a boat to tract. For instance Boreals use daggerboards aft and tract like trains even downwind.
Currently designed balanced spade rudders can be and are as strong or stronger than skeg hung rudder of old.
Sistership of mine had rudder but not keel run into the rocks at speed. Boat was hauled, rudder straighten, back out sailing. With skeg hung whole thing would likely need a re build and the season gone.
Grona, if you make the effort to speak to voyaging sailors who have built or had built for them boats in recent times I doubt you will find them incorporating the features you seem to want. ?why?
Aluminium is a great material for voyaging boats please look at some recent boats built for that purpose. Then come back to this forum and share your insights.

P.S.- you may also wish to look at prior threads concerning this issue and especially Jeff's discussion of the pluses and minuses of various building materials.
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  #40  
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Re: Open letter to yachtdesigners of the world

"You make a number of errors in your assessment of YONI:
Ballast to displ is 40% and that is more than sufficient. Limit of positive stability is 134 degrees”.
I agree that this is the normal case. But is the keel composed by an aluminum profile or is it filled with something that actually makes it heavier. When I look at the Internet version of Yoni drawings it is a bit hard to see what it is all about. When I talk about it I mean keel weight ratio and the difference is ballast ratio. In the last scenario the weight will be situated a lot higher and consequently be less “effective”. When hull has a 134 degree angle, it generally means that rig and sails are under water, and therefore needs “extra help” in order to turn the yacht right again.
Vent holes, sorry for bad English, I meant the windows under deck line in hull side.
Regardless safety glass, will it hold in survival conditions.
I’m sorry about the mast stepped on the keel, it does not show on the Internet drawing. My point is being that the mast should stand on deck in order to prevent big holes in the deck if dismasting. In order to take the load on the deck from the rig, there should be a solid piece of backup between the deck and the keel. Another reason is that the lightning can pass down to the keel construction, and thereby avoid the big explosion that derives from the gap.

Finally what are your thoughts on aluminum composite material in general? Is it the future within yacht building material?
Rudder fens is in my view the piece that protect the rudder from debris in front of the rudder. Wouldn’t it be safer, to have this constructed in a way that it could shelter the entire rudder from the immense power of downhill/downwind sailing. By balance the rudder one can assume the port handling with motor will be a lot easier, and we shouldn’t need the bow thrusters on a sailing yacht.
Sincerely
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