Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac - Page 2 - SailNet Community

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  #11  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

Quote:
Originally Posted by JomsViking View Post
The following quote springs to mind:
You are correct - I enjoy pointing out exceptions that undermine the absolutes and erroneous generalizations put forth on this forum (and propagated by commercial interests) such as:

A deep/full keel boat is slower. Dorade has a full keel, she beat a number of modern fin keel boats, boat to boat, on elapsed time.

Newer is always faster and better. Dorade beat a number of modern boats, including a Benneateau 47.7 and a Jeanneau 44, boat to boat, on elapsed time.

How is that possible?

What about all the supposed improvements over the last 80 years?
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  #12  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

So what we learned is a well-sailed wooden boat with a favorable rating can beat a condo with a mast.

An old race car could probably beat a 2000 Hyundai Elantra.
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  #13  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Newer is always faster and better. Dorade beat a number of modern boats, including a Benneateau 47.7 and a Jeanneau 44, boat to boat, on elapsed time.

How is that possible?

What about all the supposed improvements over the last 80 years?
Waterline-possibly
Beam-definitely
other differences on the boats. 2 or 3 cabins in the newer boats, 2 heads, showers, refrigeration, freezers, air conditioners, 6'+ headroom.

You are comparing a one of kind record setting boat from its days to mass produced luxury racer cruisers of today. There is a reason Dorade was competing in the racer cruiser with shorter boats. How did Dorade do boat for boat against the TP52s?
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  #14  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

Applying that logic the original folkboat would be the ultimate boat around here, as they regularly beat us and several other more modern hulls on corrected time.
And they just revolutionized the class by allowing Alu masts (although many were against modern abominations like alu).
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Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Fantastic, I love to imagine Olin Stephens is smiling, somewhere... :-)

There's a lot to be said for a mizzen staysail in a Transpac Race, however...

In other Old Woodies vs. Carbon Fiber Fantastics news, the 66' Gunboat PHAEDO was dismasted early on in the race... I'd guess the price tag on that rig alone was easily in the neighborhood of $200K...

Extremely fortunate no one was hurt, in that deal...


You sure don't need a caption to imagine what he is saying! And I think lots of those words would get beeped out here!
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  #16  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

I would expect waterline length, narrower beam, experienced crew, all to trump newer boats. Then add a pinch of "even a blind pig finds an acorn" if they caught one good puff that set them into slightly better wx timing at any point, so surprise there.

Copy Dorade's design into lightweight aluminum or frp, use modern materials all the way, update the keel and rudder, and then see whether the old design still beats the new.

Old or new, has little to do with "fast".
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

Bob has made the point several times that narrow boats are easier to keep going fast. Paulo has exposed on why current open class boats and their take offs are faster if sailed well. Be interesting to know PHRF of Dorade v. modern boats of same LOA and elapsed times for same LOA. Still, Dorade is drop dead gorgeous and a great boat.
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  #18  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

To me this results scream to me a need for a rating change for Dorade.

If you look at the results of the TP52s: After 8 days of racing the split between the fastest and slowest TP52 is under 17 minutes. This gives you an idea of how competitive this event is. My rough estimate is .15% speed difference between the two.

The owner of Dorade had bought the boat and did a total refit to start winning and racing this boat. There is also a list of the owners accomplishments which are impressive and many, to which he can add 2013 transpac winner.

Her rating is probably based on previous performances against other 1930s or maybe some of the fancy new fangled boats of the 1940s or 50s. After her most recent refit I imagine she no longer has her original engine, standing and running rigging, sails or even bottom paint. Its possible even some of her underwater lines might have been changed up a bit. My guess is she is probably sporting some water ballast and canting keel.

I'd be interested to see how the original Dorade would do against the current one. I'd also be more impressed if the current winner beat all other boats against a fleet of similar boats like in a TP52 or even against a fleet of other Dorades.
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  #19  
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Here is what a real sailboat looks like, Dorade under full sail: Transpac 2013 Unfiltered - Dorade - YouTube
Dorade is a beautiful sight under sail in that video. And yes, she still looks fast enough to be out racing, even today.

I noticed the mizzen main was reefed, probably to put more power into the mizzen staysail. She looked pretty steady in those conditions.

Thanks for that.
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Be interesting to know PHRF of Dorade v. modern boats of same LOA and elapsed times for same LOA. .
James had provided the link in the original post.

Yacht Scoring - A complete web based regatta administration and yacht scoring program

The TP52s finished in 8 days Dorade finished in 12. Dorade corrected over the entire fleet including one that finished almost 6 days earlier.
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