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  #21  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

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Originally Posted by jsaronson View Post
So what we learned is a well-sailed wooden boat with a favorable rating can beat a condo with a mast.

An old race car could probably beat a 2000 Hyundai Elantra.
Dorade beat the Beneateau 47.7 and the Jeanneau 44 on ACTUAL time, and corrected time, so an old wooden yawl with a full keel can beat a condo boat, boat to boat, without any correction.

That was also one of my points in the Hobie 33 thread that was lost - it beat the much larger, modern (supposedly better and faster) boat show boats, and almost the entire fleet, in actual time.

Last edited by jameswilson29; 07-23-2013 at 04:49 PM.
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  #22  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

The crew of the Dorade should be rightly proud of their accomplishment. They sailed a really old (and lovingly restored) well and smartly. However, remember that in the end, it is a numbers game. At 254, Dorade was one of the slowest rated boats in the entire fleet (only two had higher ratings). Dorade’s number was over twice the ratings of the sleds like Pywackett and the other seventy footers. To put it in perspective, the lone J105 entry, with a fraction of Dorade’s waterline, rated a 233. The Elliott 100, the “scratch” boat finished in 6 days, 8 hours, Dorade did it in12 days 5 hours. The Jeaneau 44 which Dorade beat on straight time, finished 4th over-all on corrected time. A pretty heady accomplishment in its own right for a “production boat” to beat out all those racing sleds. Only the last two divisions (Dorade was in the last division) had “racer-cruiser” type boats. The rest of the fleet were pure sleds.

Having raced to Hawaii (2nd place ’08 PacCup), I can tell you, the race is more than just boat speed and ratings. It is a navigators and driver’s race. How good your navigator is in forecasting winds down course will determine your ultimate outcome (we had a professional weather forecaster as our navigator). After that, it is how good your helmsmen are (Not just your first or second drivers, but how good are your third and fourth ones.) Then there is “luck” – did you get “good” wind in the squalls, were you on port board when they hit? How much “battle damage” did the boat accumulate during the race and were you able to affect repairs without impacting speed? Ocean racing is pretty complicated and no single factor will bring you victory. That notwithstanding, those aerial shots of Dorade under a full suit of sails is a thing of beauty. I can watch it over and over.
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  #23  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Dorade beat the Beneateau 47.7 and the Jeanneau 44 on ACTUAL time, and corrected time, so an old wooden yawl with a full keel can beat a condo boat, boat to boat, without any correction.

That was also one of my points in the Hobie 33 thread that was lost - it beat the much larger, modern (supposedly better and faster) boat show boats, and almost the entire fleet, in actual time.
I have loved Dorade since I was kid making pilgrimages to the shed at Minnifords in the dead of winter to stare up at her, Stormy Weather and StormVogel as they sat nestled in for the winter. It thrills me no end to see her win again. It really shows what a first rate skipper and crew can do given enough funds and a decent boat.

But I also see no point in distorting what happened. After all the truth of the matter is the most extreme, 53 foot, stripped out race boat of her era, undenignably the fastest race boat of her size on the planet for a nearly three year period, which won pretty much every major race of that time, in a no money spared campaign, beat two 44 foot, high volume production racer-cruisers in a long distance reaching race. And from that we are supposed to conclude what general lesson?

And if you look at Dorade, she is an exercise in light weight construction and low wetted surface for her day. I know people like to argue with me when I say this but if you look at Dorade closely, between her cut away forefoot and raked rudder post she was by no definition in that era a full keel. In that time, she was seen as a fin keel with attached rudder, but whatever you choose to call her keel it was one of those designs that was a missing link helping to lead the way towards the radical fin keels of today.

So while her win is impressive, recognize it for a wonderful feat of seamanship and boat handling that it was, but don't try to make it more than it is. If you want a far comparison compare Dorades' elapsed time to a modern boat of her length or better yet a modern boat her displacement. Let me know your conclusions.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 07-24-2013 at 09:25 AM. Reason: spelling and syntax
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  #24  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29
Ouch! Better try old-fashioned aluminum next time!
Or maybe even wooden (Sitka Spruce) as on Dorade?

Uhhh, I don't think that's very likely...

Maybe an extra millimeter, perhaps 2, of carbon fiber, at best... :-)
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  #25  
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I have loved Dorade since I was kid making pilgrimages to the shed at Minnefords in the dead of winter to stare up at her, Stormy Weather and StormVogel as they sat nestled in for the winter. It thrills me no end to see her win again. It really shows what a first rate skipper and crew can do given enough funds and a decent boat.
I thought NINA winning the Bermuda Race 32 years after her wins in the Transatlantic and Fastnet was remarkable...

However, DORADE winning the Transpac in 2013, after winning the Transatlantic Race in 1930, then the Bermuda and Fastnet races in '32, that's simply off the charts, the sort of thing that will NEVER be repeated in the annals of ocean racing...

I raised a glass to Olin Stephens tonight, from the Brielle Yacht Club in Manasquan Inlet, where the docks are 8" under a full moon high tide... :-)
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  #26  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

"So while her win is impressive, recognize it for a wonderful feat of seamanship and boat handling that it was, but don't try to make it more than it is."

Seriously? What it is, is 1st place overall. No ifs, ands, or buts. Sailing to victory and doing so in a wonderful feat of seamanship is usually what any crew does, especially when they win.
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Last edited by seabreeze_97; 07-23-2013 at 10:55 PM.
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  #27  
Old 07-23-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

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Originally Posted by jephotog View Post
Waterline-possibly


You are comparing a one of kind record setting boat from its days to mass produced luxury racer cruisers of today. There is a reason Dorade was competing in the racer cruiser with shorter boats. How did Dorade do boat for boat against the TP52s?
What is funny.. on the waterline, Dorade is shorter.

The Jeanneau 44 has a LWL 39 feet, 4 inches.

Dorade has a LWL of 38 feet, 10 inches (roughly, they list it as 38.9 feet)

What I find funny is all the hate. Can you not celebrate that a antique and Vintage Race Boat beat all the Fantastic Plastic Yachts on her Rating? That is what Ratings are for.. otherwise the Trans-pac would be a simple One Design
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  #28  
Old 07-24-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Uhhh, I don't think that's very likely...

Maybe an extra millimeter, perhaps 2, of carbon fiber, at best... :-)
Exactly, I love carbon fibre, but found it ironic that Alu was mentioned as old fashioned (and trustworhty) when the boat in question had wooden masts..

Have seen many broken Alu masts as well.
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  #29  
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

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Originally Posted by mad_machine View Post
What is funny.. on the waterline, Dorade is shorter.

The Jeanneau 44 has a LWL 39 feet, 4 inches.

Dorade has a LWL of 38 feet, 10 inches (roughly, they list it as 38.9 feet)

What I find funny is all the hate. Can you not celebrate that a antique and Vintage Race Boat beat all the Fantastic Plastic Yachts on her Rating? That is what Ratings are for.. otherwise the Trans-pac would be a simple One Design
I see no hate - We all admire the Dorade, her restoration, and the feat accomplished by her crew.
However we also dispute the conclusion drawn by the OP.
If you entered a folkboat and arrived after 40 days you'd probably be #1 on corrected time. Does that make it faster or better than Dorade then? (Besides you wouldn't want to go in a boat without a self-bailing cockpit.)
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  #30  
Old 07-24-2013
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Re: Eighty-year old wooden full keel boat beats new "Interesting Boats" in Transpac

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Originally Posted by JomsViking View Post
Exactly, I love carbon fibre, but found it ironic that Alu was mentioned as old fashioned (and trustworhty) when the boat in question had wooden masts..

Have seen many broken Alu masts as well.
Great thing about Aluminum over both wood and CF... it can bend. One of the boats I looked at had a bent mast. It was still floating and still sailing like that, but the top five feet were definatly bent backwards a good foot or so from true.
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