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  #161  
Old 08-01-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowraiths View Post
From the 2013 transpac rules:
1.6 Auto pilot use is only permitted for double handed boats.
If that means what I think it means, it sounds like RD was waaaay out of line insisting on it being used, even though it sounds like the 'captain' was too inexperienced to skipper the boat safely without it during his watches.

The Transpac is one of the world's major ocean races, not some paddle around the lake. Given the amount of $$ the 'captain' would have needed to fork out to enter (and forfeit by using the autopilot) and the hassle spent getting the boat to the start line and given his apparent temper, I'm surprised the 'captain' didn't chuck RD overboard...
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  #162  
Old 08-01-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

I've got one lesson learned and one question.
Lesson:
If you have RockDawg as crew you can abuse and scream at him all you want.
Sounds like a lot of race boats.*

Just don't mess with his food and water.



Question:
How exactly does the business own the boat and how is that handled tax wise.
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  #163  
Old 08-01-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

food and water and a scratch under the chin once in a while is usually all it takes for most dogs, I mean crew...
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  #164  
Old 08-01-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
If that means what I think it means
Well, here's a clarification from the transpac incident report.


14 July 2013 Aquarius Aquarius reported by sat phone to Commodore Cort that they were using the autopilot. Commodore Cort explained that its use was not permitted in their Division by the NOR

Notice the dates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
Day 8, July 15:
Cloudy again
Since I was ordered to stay in my berth, I did not do any watch. When I was up, I was informed the spinnaker was down, Harry claimed it was a wild gybe or should I say he was not good enough to sail at night with the spinnaker. I told him to use autohelm if needed to control the sudden wind changes. But he avoids and claim that autohelm is dangerous.
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  #165  
Old 08-01-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
RD,
I was shocked when I read about your horrific experience on the Transpac. I have heard stories from friends about their “race from hell” but your story beats them all hands down. One common theme in all the stories is the lack of proper provisioning. I think that if you see that the boat isn’t properly provisioned – cut your losses and walk away then and there.

Can you clarify a couple of things? Did the Jeaneau have a symmetric or A-kite? How were the crew positions outlined at the start? You mentioned that you were the navigator, yet Jake was downloading the GRIBs and Harry was setting the course. It seems to me that Harry used your’ s and Jake’s resumes in order to qualify for the race? Was the agreement that you and Jake would crew in exchange for free transportation and food during the trip? Can you post the link to the NOR and SI’s? How did you guys do your morning check-in? Also through the SATphone? Does the Transpac allow for autohems? How did you manage the energy consumption on the boat?

I am a little surprised of the casual attitude on the part of the Transpac race committee. I wonder if they have gotten complacent over the years as the vast majority of boats racing are sleds crewed by rock stars? I’m not sure you have much recourse against the RC. Somewhere in that paperwork you must have signed a crew waiver. My experience in running regattas is there isn’t much money to go after – one of the biggest expenses is the D&O insurance premium to defend the RC against lawsuits. As to the RC providing conflict counciling, don't expect them to provide "marriage counciling services" or the USCG to air drop a social worker anytime soon. (I think it is even covered in the NOR under the section pertaining to the "skipper's responsibility to race".)

Flying a kite at sea is a lot more difficult than inshore. The way Hawaii (Oahu) is situated in the trades, you have to steer really deep angles – just right for a head stay wrap. Not all ocean racers may agree, but we swear by using a “spinnaker net”. This is a simple set-up using webbing shaped like a big letter “A” (with three cross pieces). You hoist using the spare jib halyard and one leg goes to the base of the mast and the other behind the stem fitting. The “net” is like kryptonite to a spinnaker intent on head stay wrapping. The sail just touches the “net” then bounces back to where it belongs.

The big difference between the Eastern and Western Pacific is the lack of islands on the eastern side. The PacCup race will place you the furthest from land in all ocean races and is second only to Point Nemo in remoteness. If you slide too far south in the trades on the way to Hawaii, your next best landfall are the Line Islands.
GeorgeB, thanks for the post, it was well written with all good intention for all of us. I will try to address your questions the best I know how given limited free time I have currently.

Quote:
I think that if you see that the boat isn’t properly provisioned – cut your losses and walk away then and there.
In the hindsight I should have, but then, I would miss this opportunity to sail TransPac. With this under my belt, I can do TransPac in a few years with my own boat. The sailing challenge of TransPac was not tough at least at the time we were going through. But to win this race is all about strategy in the first 3 to 4 days along with the consistent repeated performance. That is what I have learned.

I am not a quitter, I will adapted and but never quit. It is not my style. In fact, I was yelled at the lest among three of us (Jake, Jane and me). I can deal with his anger, but totally disregard weather reports and refuse to down load weather files and constantly mishandling the spinnaker made me frustrated and hopeless to get to Hawaii in a reasonable time.

On the Day 4th or 5th, Harry was screaming at us to take the spinnaker down after he woke up, He yelled me and ordered me to go the dock without my harness. After the spinnaker was down, I was so mad that I had a confrontation with him. That was the last he ever yelled at me. From time to time, he threw out some dirt, but I ignored or just walked out. Unfortunately, Jake was not so lucky. Their fights are constant daily.

Quote:
Can you clarify a couple of things? Did the Jeaneau have a symmetric or A-kite? How were the crew positions outlined at the start? You mentioned that you were the navigator, yet Jake was downloading the GRIBs and Harry was setting the course. It seems to me that Harry used your’ s and Jake’s resumes in order to qualify for the race? Was the agreement that you and Jake would crew in exchange for free transportation and food during the trip? Can you post the link to the NOR and SI’s? How did you guys do your morning check-in? Also through the SATphone? Does the Transpac allow for autohems? How did you manage the energy consumption on the boat?.
We have a sym. kite. The crew position is the same I listed in my first post. I was a navigator on papar. In fact, Day 0, the list of responsibility throw out the window. There was two commanders - Harry and Jane.
I am not sure how they qualified themselves, both Jake and I have sent in lots of official notarized documents to the committee.

Yes, they agreed our transportation are provided. Meals are provided Sushi Chef, dinner at SamWoo on arrival and massage at one of the health spas, plus official Transpac clothing. All these were documented in their email to us. All are lies, never happened. Besides my flight ticket, all are silly stuff that I don't really care.

Quote:
How did you guys do your morning check-in? Also through the SATphone? Does the Transpac allow for autohems? How did you manage the energy consumption on the boat?
In the first few days, either me or Jake did the morning check in all through sat Phone. After Jane found out Jake has been sending messages to the Committee about the bad situation and his use of VHF calling other vessel for help, they hided the Sat phone and radio.

TransPac rule does not specifically prohibit use of Autohelm. If you are a doubler, you can use autohelm. The rule stops there. We spoke to the Committee via Sat Phone, using autohelm does not lead to automatically disqualification. It may carry some penalty. I believe it would be justifiable to use autohelm temporary to help the boat to gain back control in a dacy situation. We were in the Division 8, we are the amateur race team.

In our case, we were the last at all time. We were late at the start for 20 mins, and the next following 4 days, we stopped moving for few hours listening to harry and Jane lecturing everyday.

Harry started his engine a few time a day claiming to charge the batteries. I have never see a captain need to charge the batteries so frequently. I questioned him a few times, never got a decent answer, I gave up. He also prohibited us to charge our Phone, lap tops. We ended up charging our when he sleeps. So many petty shiit, no one could beleive it in 2013.

Quote:
I am a little surprised of the casual attitude on the part of the Transpac race committee. I wonder if they have gotten complacent over the years as the vast majority of boats racing are sleds crewed by rock stars? I’m not sure you have much recourse against the RC. Somewhere in that paperwork you must have signed a crew waiver. My experience in running regattas is there isn’t much money to go after – one of the biggest expenses is the D&O insurance premium to defend the RC against lawsuits. As to the RC providing conflict counciling, don't expect them to provide "marriage counciling services" or the USCG to air drop a social worker anytime soon. (I think it is even covered in the NOR under the section pertaining to the "skipper's responsibility to race".)
I did not beleive that either. Since I was not there for the first safety inspection, so I did not know how strict it was. But the follow up inspection was just a formality, I was there show the stuff.

I was not looking for counseling. We were crying for help to move our boat in a reasonable speed. They knew how slow we were. At that pace, we would not able to get to Hawaii by the last arrival date they set for the race - the 26th. All Jake wants them to say to tell Harry or Jane is: It is Ok to use autohelm for emergency situation. Or use can use autohelm with how many of point of penalty. Again, we were the last one, what does it matter. But they refused. When I called, he hung on me. That was disappointed.

After I called CG and I informed Harry that Jake has spoken to the CG. Harry backed down and agreed to use Autohelm. A few days later, Jane called committee to withdraw from the race. The CG did not need to do anything, the act of calling to CG got what we want. That is what we need at this situation. We barely missed the tropical storm Flossie.


Quote:
Flying a kite at sea is a lot more difficult than inshore. The way Hawaii (Oahu) is situated in the trades, you have to steer really deep angles – just right for a head stay wrap. Not all ocean racers may agree, but we swear by using a “spinnaker net”. This is a simple set-up using webbing shaped like a big letter “A” (with three cross pieces). You hoist using the spare jib halyard and one leg goes to the base of the mast and the other behind the stem fitting. The “net” is like kryptonite to a spinnaker intent on head stay wrapping. The sail just touches the “net” then bounces back to where it belongs.
I don't have much problem of flying the spinnaker, although it was my first. One I get a hang of it, it is not too bad. It was tiring becasue I need to constantly look up the Windex and feel how the spinnaker doing behind the main. The problem Harry has is: he can't look at the mast head windex, we use the Windex at the helm. There is 5 to 10 sec delay. But you can't teach the old dog new trick. I have to admit flying spinnaker is hard, but lot of fun since there was much wind during the day, but night, good wind.

After the mutiny on Day 12, we did about half way. Six more days, we did the rest. We sailed twice as fast after we took control minus some incidences that we let Harry had his way - saving face is important.

The spinnaker was a new sail to this boat, Harry has never flew with it. It was a used sail I think it was a bit too bit and keep getting caught. We have a spinnaker net, but was not hoisted up properly later we found out. We ended up taking it down by the order of Harry and was told never want to see it again. That was it. It is his boat and his decision.

I hope I have addressed your questions.

When I have some time, I will address why "no auto helm" was so important to Jane. Later, I found out Harry couldn't care less. I found the answer from the heated argument between Jane and Her mother.

I need to jump out the soap box for fresh air.
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  #166  
Old 08-01-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
I was not looking for counseling. We were crying for help to move our boat in a reasonable speed. They knew how slow we were. At that pace, we would not able to get to Hawaii by the last arrival date they set for the race - the 26th. All Jake wants them to say to tell Harry or Jane is: It is Ok to use autohelm for emergency situation. Or use can use autohelm with how many of point of penalty. Again, we were the last one, what does it matter. But they refused. When I called, he hung on me. That was disappointed.
Rock, just so you know for future, one thing that is standard all over the world is that ALL actions during a race, including whether or not to continue racing, are the responsibility of the nominated skipper.

It's not the responsibility of the Race Committee to help you get to Hawaii before the last arrival date. The time limit is there to allow the people waiting patiently for you at the finish line to not have to wait forever. After the "last arrival date" passes, you are automatically scored DNF and where you end up (Hawaii or the open ocean) is totally up to you.

If the NOR says in your division you get disqualified for using an auto-helm (or the engine), whether you are coming last or first, no-one is stopping you from using it under emergency conditions - but under the race rules the consequence is DNF.

Again, it's the skippers' call, not the Race Committee's.. and a call to the RC could also be read by your competitors as "outside assistance". I suspect that's why he hung up on you. For him to say anything at all could get him in deep do-do.
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Last edited by Classic30; 08-01-2013 at 09:52 PM.
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  #167  
Old 08-01-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
In all honesty, that would have concerned me too... esp on a run that long.

This thread should also serve as a warning for those who are always looking to crew (esp as 'companions') to something I have long said: WHen you get on that boat, it isn't like you can just get off an leave. You are now in a situation where you are stuck there at the captains whims. No cell phones and no vhf. If rock did not have a sat phone, it might have been even worse??

Just a thought.

But I think many people, esp those without boats, are eager to go sailing and experience stuff and may overlook shortcomings (or pretend to over look them). Me? I got my boat and will (and have) told you to screw off. I ain't going. I am picky amd when I go out, it is with competent people that I trust and will have fun with... fun being the key word. If we can all agree on one thing, it was that no one was having fun on RD's boat! Well, maybe the 86 year old gal. She was watching reality tv for weeks!

Brian
I absolutely would love to do this type of passage but would never do it with folks I hadn't sailed with or didn't know well. Indeed, on my own boat, I would not do a long passage with crew I barely knew.
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  #168  
Old 08-01-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

There is SO MUCH WRONG here that I'm not even sure where to start. To begin with, you showed little to no respect for the skipper before you even left the dock. Your petulance over having to buy your own drinks is telling.
You signed on as a NAVIGATOR on a downwind race having NEVER BEFORE flown a kite? Just exactly what were your qualifications to sign on as navigator to begin with?
Then you two twits, having decided that things were not as you wanted started calling the RC, USCG, the U.S. f$$king Navy, and god knows who else on the sly to whine?
You signed up for a trip to Oahu on an Aloha Division boat, and you were picked by and large because neither of you have or had the experience or skill to get on board a real race boat. You should have accepted your lot in life and delt with it, s-ingtfu in the process, or never left the dock.
A simple look up at the crew list will tell EVERYONE who you are. Personally, you couldn't get on a boat that I run if you pointed a gun at me. I suspect there are a lot of other owners that feel the same.
Finally son, you are dead wrong about the AP. on a crewed boat, it's a DSQ/DNF. At the moment that YOU forced that issue, YOU flushed the owners race investment, whatever it might have been, down the drain. If you had done that to me, on my boat, it would have cost me $55K, and I can guarantee you that you would have been tie wrapped to the lifelines for the duration of the passage.
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  #169  
Old 08-01-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

SalNichols94804

Welcome to the Board. Very well put.

I see a great divide here on the circumstances and horror of RD's trip, the crew, the imprisonment, etc., holy crap!. Tons of excellent responses to RD's horror story. I'll not judge.

RD, save your time, money, health, trust me the legal system thing will be a waste of time.

Get out there, crew another boat, sounds like you have the skills, even more now, after this trip from Hell!
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  #170  
Old 08-01-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SalNichols94804 View Post

There is SO MUCH WRONG here that I'm not even sure where to start...

You signed on as a NAVIGATOR on a downwind race having NEVER BEFORE flown a kite?
Wow, just WOW...

I think the mere fact that he actually confessed to that tells us pretty much all we need to know... :-)
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 08-01-2013 at 11:03 PM.
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