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  #241  
Old 08-03-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowButSteady View Post
RD may have made the mistake of not bailing on this rag-tag bunch before the start of the race (and THAT was a pretty serious mistake), HOWEVER, it is the skipper of the boat who is ultimately responsible for ALL the problems in this case:

- The skipper didn't properly prepare the boat
- The skipper didn't assemble an adequate crew for such a race
- The skipper didn't properly provision the boat
- The skipper didn't have the experience to be the skipper of a boat sailing 2000+ miles of open ocean
- The skipper (apparently) has absolutely no management skills (his ownership of a mediocre sushi bar notwithstanding)

Yes, RD may have been in over his head with respect to flying a spinnaker, but it was the skipper's responsibility to make sure that the crew could handle the sails. The skipper totally lost control of the situation because he could neither sail the boat himself, nor bring himself to handing over that responsibility to someone who could do so.

This.
Damn, times sure have changed since I last crewed in an offshore race... I suppose nowadays, crew are expected to to serve a function little different than passengers on a Carnival Cruise ride, and sometimes - as rockDAWG put it - his "luck ran out", and he finally wound up with a Captain Schettino in command...

I once did a Chicago-Mac back in the 70's as a last-minute walk-on when heavier weather was forecast, but every other race I've done, the crew was intensely involved in the prep of the boat from the get-go... In fact, the owner/skipper was usually the LAST one to arrive on the scene, by that time the watch captains and the rest of the crew had everything sorted, and every single crewmember knew where every single item on that boat had been stowed, etc... As it should be, of course...

The last Bermuda race I did, the program commenced with the first get-together of the crew 9 months in advance, with two more gatherings over the course of the winter... Scores of emails and phone calls during that interval, relating to every conceivable facet of the trip...

Sure, the skipper/owner bears the 'ultimate responsibility', but any crew worthy of sailing a race like the Transpac should have been able to see this was a boat one would not want to be on well in advance...
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 08-03-2013 at 10:48 AM.
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  #242  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Our Bermuda race routine for almost all crew was:
1. They did one or more local races with us.
2. They did one or more offshore trips/races with us.

Thus going to Bermuda we had a generally skilled and happy crew that worked well in fair weather and foul and knew the boat

I am getting the idea that RD *really* wanted a Transpac as a "resume builder" to get other rides. At least he now has a very good idea of how NOT to run a boat The hopefully aborted plan to take legal action against the sushi-skipper will not help a lot in getting him on other boats. IMHO that avenue should not be pursued.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Damn, times sure have changed since I last crewed in an offshore race... I suppose nowadays, crew are expected to to serve a function little different than passengers on a Carnival Cruise ride, and sometimes - as rockDAWG put it - his "luck ran out", and he finally wound up with a Captain Schettino in command...

I once did a Chicago-Mac back in the 70's as a last-minute walk-on when heavyier weather was forecast, but every other race I've done, the crew was intensely involved in the prep of the boat from the get-go... In fact, the owner/skipper was usually the LAST one to arrive on the scene, by that time the watch captains and the rest of the crew had everything sorted, and every single crewmember knew where every single item on that boat had been stowed, etc... As it should be, of course...

The last Bermuda race I did, the program commenced with the first get-together of the crew 9 months in advance, with two more gatherings over the course of the winter... Scores of emails and phone calls during that interval, relating to every conceivable facet of the trip...

Sure, the skipper/owner bears the 'ultimate responsibility', but any crew worthy of sailing a race like the Transpac should have been able to see this was a boat one would not want to be on well in advance...
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  #243  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

In some cases, the Captain and Owner are not the same person, even though both are aboard. When this is the case, the owner is often the last to the party. I've always known the true Captain to coordinate the crew, although, the crew certainly was directly involved with preparations. Even if the owner took that title officially, there was always a clear leader among the ranks. Many smart owners I've known, bring along someone more capable than they. It doesn't mean they are necessarily incapable, it clearly means they are smart.
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  #244  
Old 08-03-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Damn, times sure have changed since I last crewed in an offshore race... I suppose nowadays, crew are expected to to serve a function little different than passengers on a Carnival Cruise ride, and sometimes - as rockDAWG put it - his "luck ran out", and he finally wound up with a Captain Schettino in command...

I once did a Chicago-Mac back in the 70's as a last-minute walk-on when heavier weather was forecast, but every other race I've done, the crew was intensely involved in the prep of the boat from the get-go... In fact, the owner/skipper was usually the LAST one to arrive on the scene, by that time the watch captains and the rest of the crew had everything sorted, and every single crewmember knew where every single item on that boat had been stowed, etc... As it should be, of course...

The last Bermuda race I did, the program commenced with the first get-together of the crew 9 months in advance, with two more gatherings over the course of the winter... Scores of emails and phone calls during that interval, relating to every conceivable facet of the trip...

Sure, the skipper/owner bears the 'ultimate responsibility', but any crew worthy of sailing a race like the Transpac should have been able to see this was a boat one would not want to be on well in advance...
Okay, so it's obivous you've got a bit of a pudgy for giving RD a hard time. Whatever. I'm not here to defend the guy by any means, but your arguments are pretty weak in this particilar case. Here's a rundown of why...

All the stellar crew performances you list above...these were crews put together by the skipper. Again, it boils down to him/her. And that's the way it should work...no doubt. The problem is in this case, the skipper didn't do his job. Don't blame the crew.

You guys are getting your noses up because RD hadn't flown a spinnaker before - so your conclusion is that he had no business crewing a TransPac. Well that's not your call. That's the skipper's. Maybe RD lied about that. I don't know. But neither do you. Again, blame the skipper for allowing it.

Finally, on the above argument...maybe he hadn't flown a kite before. But according to the story, he certainly handled it better than the skipper and was perfectly willing to go up the stick and fix the skipper's repeated clusterfinks. And he was able to drive the boat well enough under spin to avoid his own clusterfinks. That's some pretty quick learning I'd say.

So, feel free to hammer on RD. I don't really care. But at least do so with some facts and not all the uppity hyperbole.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 08-03-2013 at 12:42 PM.
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  #245  
Old 08-03-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Haha- Sushi Skipper. I like that.
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  #246  
Old 08-03-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Sounds like the owner was desperate to run the transpac. To the point he scrapes the bottom of the barrel to find crew after a known qualified crew that he'd sailed with in two Puerto Vallarta races opted out. Notably, Randy mentioned that the owner had the boat listed as a live aboard.

Then you have jake & rock, who are desperate to get on a transpac boat, such that they agreed to crew on this boat, last minute, sight unseen, captain unmet, and race rules unstudied.

Not surprisingly, these, together, culminated in at-odds goals, unpreparedness, clashing personalities, and appallingly infantile behavior, resulting in the rather predictable albeit entertaining... as in "three stooges of the high seas thank gawd no-one died"... outcome.

Proving yet again that desperate people do desperate (and stupid) things.

In the end, regardless of the shoulda coulda wouldas, afaics rock has clearly demonstrated that he has no compunctions whatsoever resorting to violence under duress. Yes, the captain brandished the winch handle. However rock was the one who punched the captain in the nose. So, I, personally, am not the least bit surprised the captain cowed to rock's bullying after that. That rock would then paint himself as victim while smugly talking about taking legal actions speaks volumes.

Btw, and aside, when I read rock's description of the captain, I must admit, I was immediately reminded of the temperamental, though, quite harmless, Chinese cook from my days working at a Chinese restaurant when I was a teen. The cook regularly screamed something in Chinese while brandishing a large hatchet looking knife. Not once was I concerned that he was gonna chop anyone up.

In the end, and imho, any way you cut this, everyone was at fault for this fiasco. That is, except for, perhaps, the 86 year old mother-in-law.
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Last edited by shadowraiths; 08-03-2013 at 01:09 PM.
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

I am a commercial pilot, but have never flown a 727 in my life.
So if some random 727 flying airline wants me to be a copilot and the pilot has NEVER FLOWN ONE EITHER and is NUTS, you might admire my native flying skills for getting the thing to Hawaii in one piece, but my judgement would be terrible for not jumping right off and running away in the first place
I suspect J.E and I share bit of the same kind of offshore experience and this trip screamed DISASTER from the first paragraph compared to what a "normal" offshore trip is like.


Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay, so it's obivous you've got a bit of a pudgy for giving RD a hard time. Whatever. I'm not here to defend the guy by any means, but your arguments are pretty weak in this particilar case. Here's a rundown of why...

All the stellar crew performances you list above...these were crews put together by the skipper. Again, it boils down to him/her. And that's the way it should work...no doubt. The problem is in this case, the skipper didn't do his job. Don't blame the crew.

You guys are getting your noses up because RD hadn't flown a spinnaker before - so your conclusion is that he had no business crewing a TransPac. Well that's not your call. That's the skipper's. Maybe RD lied about that. I don't know. But neither do you. Again, blame the skipper for allowing it.

Finally, on the above argument...maybe he hadn't flown a kite before. But according to the story, he certainly handled it better than the skipper and was perfectly willing to go up the stick and fix the skipper's repeated clusterfinks. And he was able to drive the boat well enough under spin to avoid his own clusterfinks. That's some pretty quick learning I'd say.

So, feel free to hammer on RD. I don't really care. But at least do so with some facts and not all the uppity hyperbole.
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  #248  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowraiths View Post
Sounds like the owner was desperate to run the transpac. To the point he scrapes the bottom of the barrel to find crew after a known qualified crew that he'd sailed with in two Puerto Vallarta races opted out. Notably, Randy mentioned that the owner had the boat listed as a live aboard.

Then you have jake & rock, who are desperate to get on a transpac boat, such that they agreed to crew on this boat, last minute, sight unseen, captain unmet, and race rules unstudied.

Not surprisingly, these, together, culminated in at-odds goals, unpreparedness, clashing personalities, and appallingly infantile behavior, resulting in the rather predictable albeit entertaining... as in "three stooges of the high seas thank gawd no-one died"... outcome.

Proving yet again that desperate people do desperate (and stupid) things.

In the end, regardless of the shoulda coulda wouldas, afaics rock has clearly demonstrated that he has no compunctions whatsoever resorting to violence under duress. Yes, the captain brandished the winch handle. However rock was the one who punched the captain in the nose. So, I, personally, am not the least bit surprised the captain cowed to rock's bullying after that. That rock would then paint himself as victim while smugly talking about taking legal actions speaks volumes.

Btw, and aside, when I read rock's description of the captain, I must admit, I was immediately reminded of the temperamental, though, quite harmless, Chinese cook from my days working at a Chinese restaurant when I was a teen. The cook regularly screamed something in Chinese while brandishing a large hatchet looking knife. Not once was I concerned that he was gonna chop anyone up.

In the end, and imho, any way you cut this, everyone was at fault for this fiasco. That is, except for, perhaps, the 86 year old mother-in-law.
Well put.

Steve,

No ones got a pudgy for Rock. The skippers weaknesses are obvious. However you seem to want to be an apologist for Rocks choices and behavior.

You went so far as to try and denegrate the Captain with one of 48 reviews of his business from the Yelp site. The worst one as a matter of fact, and it wasn't representative of the other 48 reviews at all. Why did you do that. Why did you cherry pick that skewed review?

Have you researched Rocks evaluations from his employees, they are available and aren't very kind. Seems like you are ok with presenting a one sided view here

It isn't about flying a kite. It's about all the choices including threatening the Captain, hitting him, taking over the boat. Calling the CG, the organizers, and the friging USNavy. he wasnt in iminent danger, he just wasnt getting his way.

Remember the other crew would have gone with the Captain had their last mate come along.

By the way I am curious where's the tape, movie we were promised. There is a completely other side to this story I am sure. The TRUTH as we know is probably somewhere in the middle.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 08-03-2013 at 01:44 PM.
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  #249  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay, so it's obivous you've got a bit of a pudgy for giving RD a hard time. Whatever. I'm not here to defend the guy by any means, but your arguments are pretty weak in this particilar case. Here's a rundown of why...

All the stellar crew performances you list above...these were crews put together by the skipper. Again, it boils down to him/her. And that's the way it should work...no doubt. The problem is in this case, the skipper didn't do his job. Don't blame the crew.

You guys are getting your noses up because RD hadn't flown a spinnaker before - so your conclusion is that he had no business crewing a TransPac. Well that's not your call. That's the skipper's. Maybe RD lied about that. I don't know. But neither do you. Again, blame the skipper for allowing it.

Finally, on the above argument...maybe he hadn't flown a kite before. But according to the story, he certainly handled it better than the skipper and was perfectly willing to go up the stick and fix the skipper's repeated clusterfinks. And he was able to drive the boat well enough under spin to avoid his own clusterfinks. That's some pretty quick learning I'd say.

So, feel free to hammer on RD. I don't really care. But at least do so with some facts and not all the uppity hyperbole.
You're right, we have no knowledge of how he or the skipper presented themselves and their qualifications to one another, or what sort of understanding they had...

However, back when I was a kid fresh out of college and looking to do some offshore racing, and walking the docks prior to the LA-Mazatlan, Chicago-Mac, and Marblehead-Halifax races wearing my 'Crew Available' tee shirt, there was simply no freakin' way I would have solicited a berth on a boat without having a fair amount of experience flying the sort of chutes and bloopers common at that time... Now, maybe that's just me... And, while I can't offer proof of that, or document it, I can assure you - that is a FACT... :-)

As to the veracity of any of this sorry tale, I'd say the jury is still out on that one... To many experienced racers, and the folks over at Sailing Anarchy, it smells like BS, so who knows what is the truth here...

If you look back at the start of this thread, when everyone couldn't wait for Part II, and some were already pronouncing the story 'epic' and 'best story ever', I was among the first to express my 'doubts'... In retrospect, I'd say I was pretty restrained compared to what followed, pretty much limiting my characterization to certain elements of the story - the encounter with the SWIFT, for example - as simply sounding "implausible"... :-)

I'll admit, however, the tide turned for me when the talk started up about him bringing a lawsuit against the skipper for the "mistreatment" he suffered... Sorry, that's when the gloves came off for me... The ocean, and the sport of yacht racing, has no place for the sort of Whiny B*itches who probably shouldn't have been out there to begin with... :-) I could care less what he chooses to do, whether he had a pleasant trip or a miserable one, but that sort of nonsense is the kind of thing that could ultimately affect us all, or the proud legacy of of a race as grand as the Transpac...
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  #250  
Old 08-03-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Well put.

Steve,

No ones got a pudgy for Rock. The skippers weaknesses are obvious. However you seem to want to be an apologist for Rocks choices and behavior.

You went so far as to try and denegrate the Captain with one of 48 reviews of his business from the Yelp site. The worst one as a matter of fact, and it wasn't representative of the other 48 reviews at all. Why did you do that. Why did you cherry pick that skewed review?

Have you researched Rocks evaluations from his employees, they are available and aren't very kind. Seems like you are ok with presenting a one sided view here

It isn't about flying a kite. It's about all the choices including threatening the Captain, hitting him, taking over the boat. Calling the CG, the organizers, and the friging USNavy. he wasnt in iminent danger, he just wasnt getting his way.

Remember the other crew would have gone with the Captain had their last mate come along.

By the way I am curious where's the tape, movie we were promised. There is a completely other side to this story I am sure. The TRUTH as we know is probably somewhere in the middle.
I agree with this assessment entirely. The formulas for a disastrous escapade were all quite apparent from the outset of the tale. Start with the simple differences in the cultures of the players and their consequential conflicting expectations, language difficulties making it impossible to communicate in other than a very rudimentary fashion (that subsequently lead to frustration and explosive outbursts of anger), a poorly prepared yacht inadequately provisioned/watered and with nonsensical crew assignments that led to an inexperienced and know-nothing watch team on deck after dark trying to fly, of all things, a spinnaker.

Given the first few paragraphs of part one of the tale, the OP should have had the common sense to simply say "Thanks but No Thanks" at the out-set and chalked the travel to Long Beach up to experience. The tale went down hill from there and has continued a downward spiral since. Moreover, the OP and some contributors have made some fairly slanderous representations about the yacht owner(s) and his/their business on a public forum (where they have not been given the opportunity to respond) that could be perceived as doing tangible, material damage to his/their reputation(s) and business--particularly the comments concerning illegals/immigrants. I submit that given the litigious nature of California, that is unwise for them and, frankly, more so for the sponsors of this forum. Lastly, as other than a precautionary tale, at several hundred comments I think the thread has been a terrific waste of bandwidth, eh?

FWIW...
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