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  #281  
Old 08-04-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SalNichols94804 View Post
Deliveries are different. Apples and oranges.
True. The race crew ran the water maker and had showers. They are highly competitive. They finished second in their division last year.

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  #282  
Old 08-04-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SalNichols94804 View Post
Actually, you don't know that. On day 12, they were 818 miles out of Honolulu. At their rate of 100+ miles/day, they were still 7.5 days at best from the finish. If they had provisioned for 15, which is reasonable, that would have left them 5 days short. So, does it not make sense to begin rationing?

The fundamental problem IMHO wasn't the provisioning. They just didn't sail fast enough.
Uh, forgive me for being naive, but isn't provisioning a fundamental problem when you are running out of food and water?

I certainly would never step foot on a boat that intentionally cuts it that close. There are no guarantees when it comes to sailing "fast enough" for 2000 nm.
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  #283  
Old 08-04-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SalNichols94804 View Post
Regarding water. H2O is the heaviest item that you put on the boat. The NORMAL water plan is to account for 1 gallon/person/day. In the case of Aquarius, estimating a max 15 day passage * 5 crew =75 gallons. The Jeanneau 43 has a total capacity of 145 gallons. IOW, by topping off the tanks, they would have carrying 70 gallons more than necessary or 560 additional lbs., probably on the wrong side of the boat. Heavy is slow. I left SFO for Oahu with 5 people and 80 gallons, and arrived with 15 in the tank plus my 5 emergency gallons. This s SOP on a race boat amigos.

You drink it, you don't bathe with it, or wash dishes with it.
The problem with that calculus is that there is very little room for error. I have been on races where we spent a fair amount of time hove too fore-reaching at 2 kn in the wrong direction before being able to resume sailing at a VMG rather less than our target speed. Had we suffered rig damage, or had to proceed under jury-rig, we'd have been far off our estimated average and, potentially, quite thirsty upon arrival. On one race I took part in, one of the yachts (not ours fortunately) came off a wave rather hard and a short while later had water up to the floor-boards--fresh water as a seam had split on one of the two tanks costing half their supply. We met up with them and passed them 5 gallons in a jug for which they were very grateful. Another boat did the same so all was well.

The fact is, having not taken aboard water before the race, the crew had no idea how much water was aboard at departure as I doubt anyone had been keeping track of usage before the race. If anything, they should have topped up and, having done so, could have off-loaded the excess if they felt there was any. (Frankly, on that yacht with that crew, I would not have assumed better than a 5 kn average. Using your numbers that would have required stores of about 110 gallons. The extra 240 lbs or so for a complete fill would have had negligible impact on the performance of the yacht).

The foregoing not withstanding, in my view the behavior of all aboard that yacht was atrocious. They got to Hawaii, largely uninjured, and should have been grateful for that, alone, and simply let the memory of the events be filed in their mental Lessons Learned folder. I surely would not have advertised the events and if so, most surely would not have expected a sympathetic hearing.

FWIW...
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  #284  
Old 08-04-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
This is just sad. Blah, blah, blah
Seriously? Anyone in this thread who disagrees with your extremely one-sided telling of this story is a troll, is attacking you, is intimidating you? "Oh, woe unto me, all of these non-believers are beating me up! Better call the Whaam-bulance, my friend.

I've never met Chef2Sail. I'm not his shill, and he says plenty that I disagree with, especially when he gets emotional. I found that I was able to form cogent questions about your story all on my own, without his help. Plenty of experienced mariners here (some of whom I've met in person) have pointed out the clear mistakes that you made.

As expected, you flame on anyone who dares to suggest that maybe, just perhaps, somehow, you might share a tiny bit of blame in the situation you explained to us.

This is the arrogance that I spoke of, earlier in the thread. You might consider that being "Da mos educated Redneck" isn't quite education enough. Good luck out there dude, you're going to need it.
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  #285  
Old 08-04-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Its easy to say "I would have taken one look at the boat and got off".

But thats a big ask when you've paid for your air flights (a lot of crew fly into the Canary Islands for a trans atlanitc and that costs heaps); plus they have taken 2 weeks or more off work... so what do they do now?
In exitement of something new ones enthusiasm overlooks a lot of things.

Its not easy to bail out.
Not, it's not.
Yes, it is.

If you decide to put yourself out there as professional crew, or even "aspiring" professional crew, forfeiting expenses because the captain turns out to be a screw-up is what's call "occupational hazard".

It's your life we're talking about here. Like Coquina said, he failed to exercise good judgement. As your resume and experience builds, theoretically, you start picking your rides more carefully and these "forfeits" become fewer and fewer. If you're a good, professional crewperson, with good references, you become known in the industry circles and this also helps cut down on bad races and deliveries. I imagine that something will always manage to pass through the filter once in a while though...

If you only value your life at the cost of a few thousand dollars for airline tickets, well...that sounds like a judgement problem to me. Your "risk vs. gain" filter is obviously broken.
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  #286  
Old 08-04-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Interesting discussion over at SA regarding legal ramifications of mutiny, nre 18 USC 107 Seaman and Stowaways
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  #287  
Old 08-04-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Sailing Anarchy has this listed under "Mutinous BS" however there is a Jeanneau 43 in the Transpac, with a Japanese named-skipper, and a co-owner named "Jane"t, and originated from CA. The boat started with the first group, but if you watch the "Yellowbrick" tracing, it had some signficant difficulty, was passed by every other boat, and then bailed at the finish.

Where's the rest of the story? Or .... has something untoward become of the original poster? Could this be the "Blair-Witch" of the high seas?
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  #288  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Disregard the comment about the rest of the story. It was not evident from the forum entry point that there were more posts.
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  #289  
Old 08-04-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coquina View Post
I am a commercial pilot, but have never flown a 727 in my life.
So if some random 727 flying airline wants me to be a copilot and the pilot has NEVER FLOWN ONE EITHER and is NUTS, you might admire my native flying skills for getting the thing to Hawaii in one piece, but my judgement would be terrible for not jumping right off and running away in the first place
I suspect J.E and I share bit of the same kind of offshore experience and this trip screamed DISASTER from the first paragraph compared to what a "normal" offshore trip is like.
Again, the problem with your premise here, in relation to this particular story, is that you are assuming a lot. Jake was listed as having a bit of experience - at least in terms of his CG rating. Could he drive with and/or fly a spin? Seemed like it according to the story. But, unless you absolutely know the answer to that question, your premise begins to fall apart - and that decision becomes harder.

Things were more complex than you want to make them. That's all I'm saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
No ones got a pudgy for Rock. The skippers weaknesses are obvious. However you seem to want to be an apologist for Rocks choices and behavior.

You went so far as to try and denegrate the Captain with one of 48 reviews of his business from the Yelp site. The worst one as a matter of fact, and it wasn't representative of the other 48 reviews at all. Why did you do that. Why did you cherry pick that skewed review?
Sigh. Chef, you do get tiresome sometimes. I didn't cherry pick anything. That would require effort. As clearly shown in my post, I pulled that from the thread at SA. And I did so because it seemed to back-up the personality portrayed in the story. That's it.

So I didn't "denegrate" [sic] - anyone. No big conspiracy dude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Have you researched Rocks evaluations from his employees, they are available and aren't very kind. Seems like you are ok with presenting a one sided view here
I've seen some of the stuff. But I'm not into outing people like that. You seem to have that market cornered, considering it your job to protect the sailing world by calling CG commanders and sending posts to people looking for crew whom you don't approve...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Lastly, one thing you are correct about, should I know or see you posting for delivery jobs etc anywhere I will feel it is my obligation for safeties sake to forward this posting to them. Hopefully when they Google search your name it will now appear.
I just don't roll like that.

Look, I'm just following the story as it plays out across the forums. Why? Because as I said very early on here - and with my first post at SA...it's a hell of a story. That's really all I care about. Seriously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
You're right, we have no knowledge of how he or the skipper presented themselves and their qualifications to one another, or what sort of understanding they had...
That's really my main point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
However, back when I was a kid fresh out of college and looking to do some offshore racing, and walking the docks prior to the LA-Mazatlan, Chicago-Mac, and Marblehead-Halifax races wearing my 'Crew Available' tee shirt, there was simply no freakin' way I would have solicited a berth on a boat without having a fair amount of experience flying the sort of chutes and bloopers common at that time... Now, maybe that's just me... And, while I can't offer proof of that, or document it, I can assure you - that is a FACT... :-)
My problem is with your notion that to even ask to crew a TransPac without Experience A, or Qualification Y, or whatever, is "heresy". That's BS. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking. Ever. It's THE SKIPPER'S job to do some due diligence and say "yes" or "no" to that ask...for all the reasons you mention above.

By your focusing on the crew's "presumption" (this is what I meant about your "uppity hyperbole"), you're actually fostering a more dangerous situation, deflecting the responsibility from the skipper. You should absolutely focus the perfectly valid ire you have been laying out in your posts ON THE SKIPPER. It's ALWAYS his call - not the crew's - as to who gets on his boat. This skipper blew it in every regard. So put the hammer where it's due.

That's all I'm saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
As to the veracity of any of this sorry tale, I'd say the jury is still out on that one... To many experienced racers, and the folks over at Sailing Anarchy, it smells like BS, so who knows what is the truth here...

If you look back at the start of this thread, when everyone couldn't wait for Part II, and some were already pronouncing the story 'epic' and 'best story ever', I was among the first to express my 'doubts'... In retrospect, I'd say I was pretty restrained compared to what followed, pretty much limiting my characterization to certain elements of the story - the encounter with the SWIFT, for example - as simply sounding "implausible"... :-)
I have no idea if it's "true". Several things seem to back up the general thrust of the story. But honestly, I don't give a damn if it's true or not. As I said above (I'm one of the ones you're quoting) I just think it's a damn good story...epic even. And I'm all about good sailing stories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I'll admit, however, the tide turned for me when the talk started up about him bringing a lawsuit against the skipper for the "mistreatment" he suffered... Sorry, that's when the gloves came off for me... The ocean, and the sport of yacht racing, has no place for the sort of Whiny B*itches who probably shouldn't have been out there to begin with... :-) I could care less what he chooses to do, whether he had a pleasant trip or a miserable one, but that sort of nonsense is the kind of thing that could ultimately affect us all, or the proud legacy of of a race as grand as the Transpac...
Again, this is precisely why your ire should be directed at the skipper. His poor decision-making - as a participating TransPac skipper - that led to this fiasco will have a far greater affect on the TransPac itself and even "sailing/racing at large" than some litigious crew-member who couldn't fly a kite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SalNichols94804 View Post
Morning light...a perfect example of having an incredibly talented crew each with their own egos coming together for a common goal. Kind of what you'd expect when Roy (rip) is providing you the best sailors on the planet as mentors/coaches.
I thought it was all about the Whomper.
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  #290  
Old 08-04-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

I agree with the poster who said there is too much venom and to let the guy blow off some steam. Better to get the whole tale ( or his whole version) and he gets to vent. I have read nothing that actually contradicts his account, slanted though it might be. Let the reader decide. Probably too late for that now as the guy is getting some serious hostility and I wouldn't blame him if he never came back. Everyone slants things a little to make themselves look blameless. Everyone.

I doubt there will be a lawsuit. I don't really see serious damages on his part, he isn't hurt or permanently disabled. I'm no expert on sailing, but I am somewhat schooled in labor law due to my career as an architect and construction manager.....and its not clear if there is a case, from what I have read.
I mean, you can sue a ham sandwich iif you want to.
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