Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013 - Page 32 - SailNet Community
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post #311 of 1053 Old 08-05-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

After this thread Captains will require all crew to sign non-disclosure agreements...
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post #312 of 1053 Old 08-05-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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But again, it was when he started talking of potential legal action, that the tide changed for me... And, when he reaffirms his belief that a lawsuit in the case of the RULE 62 is not justified, and might make it more difficult for him to find crewing positions, but that in this event, he might feel entitled to compensation for his "mistreatment", well... the depth of such hypocrisy is stunning...
I generally think your post above was really unnecessary at this point Jon. I don't know if its just Monday morning or maybe your dog bit you or something. The need to restate the negative tone in response to Poopdeck's post is so depressingly normal around here. I find it weird that you begin by saying (repeating really because you've said the same thing already in this thread) that you don't accept the OP's story -- but yet you seem to have conjured up enough "facts" to replace it. I just don't get it. Personally, I am happier with a whole lot less judgement and certainly less fire and brimstone. If you have an opinion about what a would be crew member should do prior to agreeing to sign-on with a skipper maybe you could say so. It is really easy to simply criticize and often it is also inaccurate. RD made one really big mistake in deciding to board the boat. However, absent the owner's alleged misconduct -- that same "can do / I'm here to sail" quality that got RD on the boat -- would have been an asset in almost every situation.

What I really wanted to comment on, however, was the quote above because *your opinion* of a legal distinction is not in dispute. You think that the allegedly negligent decision by the skipper of RULE 62 and the alleged intentional conduct by the owner of the RD's Transpac boat are the same and that it is "the height of hypocrisy" to distinguish between them (which BTW is what RD did -- you inaccurately accuse him of raising the prospect of legal action -- someone else brought that up RD responded). Jon - you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. And, you have some fine things to say about boats now and again here on SN. But your opinion about the law -- and more importantly about the facts underlying the legal distinction between intentional conduct and mistakes -- is ignorant. You would do well to think about the distinction between the conduct at issue; the actor's choices; their abilities to do differently or correct their conduct; as well as the impact which holding them responsible for their conduct might have on others. If you still don't get it, maybe it would help you to inform your self about the legal distinctions since courts have spent hundred if not thousands of years expounding on these questions. As Poop said . . . they might even school you.
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post #313 of 1053 Old 08-05-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

The most disturbing aspect of this discussion is how quickly it went to the lawsuit topic. If there is one thing you can put your finger on that is an absolute menace to our culture it is the lawsuit-happy mindset of people. Everyone wants to get on the sue-you bandwagon to instant riches. Makes me nauseous.
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post #314 of 1053 Old 08-05-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Poopdeck's post was a nice read. He sounds like a great guy to have next to you on the beach or in the marina. Willing to lend a hand and a kind word. It has little relevance to being more than 1,000 miles from the nearest supplies. Forgetting half your stuff at the beach means at worst someone has to drive back to the nearest store. Forgetting half your stuff sailing to Hawaii is not an "oopsie darn the luck" kind of thing. It is life threatening. Kind of like the difference between running your car out of gas and running your airplane out of gas
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post #315 of 1053 Old 08-05-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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What I really wanted to comment on, however, was the quote above because *your opinion* of a legal distinction is not in dispute. You think that the allegedly negligent decision by the skipper of RULE 62 and the alleged intentional conduct by the owner of the RD's Transpac boat are the same and that it is "the height of hypocrisy" to distinguish between them (which BTW is what RD did -- you inaccurately accuse him of raising the prospect of legal action -- someone else brought that up RD responded). Jon - you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. And, you have some fine things to say about boats now and again here on SN. But your opinion about the law -- and more importantly about the facts underlying the legal distinction between intentional conduct and mistakes -- is ignorant. You would do well to think about the distinction between the conduct at issue; the actor's choices; their abilities to do differently or correct their conduct; as well as the impact which holding them responsible for their conduct might have on others. If you still don't get it, maybe it would help you to inform your self about the legal distinctions since courts have spent hundred if not thousands of years expounding on these questions. As Poop said . . . they might even school you.
That's certainly a fair point, I would be the first to concede my understanding of the legal complexities of these respective examples might only rise to the level of any layman, at best... I was simply pointing out the 'coarsest' distinction between the two - namely that one involved a fatality to a crewmember, while the other involved little more than unpleasantness to a sailor who has survived to sail again...

You're right, in the letters of the law, it is perhaps best left to the experts to explain those subtle distinctions... For example, such as why the decision by the skipper of RULE 62 to enter that Bahamian cut that night could merely be adjudged a mistake instead of intentional conduct, whereas the failure, say, to top off the water tanks on AQUARIUS prior to departure would likely have been intentional conduct, and not simply a mistake... :-)
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post #316 of 1053 Old 08-05-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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After this thread Captains will require all crew to sign non-disclosure agreements...
Dude - this is your first post in 11 years???? That's impressive right there.


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post #317 of 1053 Old 08-05-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Dude - this is your first post in 11 years???? That's impressive right there.
Haha. This is a very moving thread!
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post #318 of 1053 Old 08-05-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

I hesitate to comment , but since I've read this thread I can't stop thinking about anyone trying to confine me to my bunk & there being no critical care for a thousand miles . Lord have mercy . What has sailing come to ??? Is confined to your bunk like time out . Good thing I sail alone If that's how it is now . Right or wrong , someone tries to confine me to my bunk.....I put the clown in time out to where his clothes are out of style when he regains consciousness . Don't get me started about that suing crap & what a shoe clerk idea that is.
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post #319 of 1053 Old 08-05-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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I hesitate to comment , but since I've read this thread I can't stop thinking about anyone trying to confine me to my bunk & there being no critical care for a thousand miles . Lord have mercy . What has sailing come to ??? Is confined to your bunk like time out . Good thing I sail alone If that's how it is now . Right or wrong , someone tries to confine me to my bunk.....I put the clown in time out to where his clothes are out of style when he regains consciousness . Don't get me started about that suing crap & what a shoe clerk idea that is.
And if you had already demonstrated (as RD described in his rant) a willingness to physically assault the owner/captain? What then?
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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And if you had already demonstrated (as RD described in his rant) a willingness to physically assault the owner/captain? What then?
Was this at the part where the o/c is swinging a winch handle at the other crew's head? So your cool with that?


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