Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013 - Page 41 - SailNet Community

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  #401  
Old 08-06-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Smack, the NOR couldn’t have been more clear. It restricts the use of an auto helm. DSQ. The “Class Rules” does not apply as this particular Jeaneau was not racing as a one design class nor did the governing authority for the Jeaneau one design association submit their class rules prior to the race. I have experience in this area insomuch as I was the chief measurer for my class association and am well aware what you have to do to get your rules accepted by YRA sanctioned events. You cannot make up or change the rules as you go along. If the RC was going to allow auto helms from a certain point onward, they will have to announce it to the rest of the fleet so they too, could take advantage of the rule change. Remember, rules must be applied fairly and equally to all competitors.

Jake, help me out a little bit… How many days before the race did you arrive? When the sail maker showed you the kite, why didn’t he show you how the net was to be rigged on the boat? How did you guys fly the kite? For example, did it have a sock? Please walk me through the gybing procedure. Why didn’t you guys pole out the genoa at night so Harry could sail wing-on-wing? What was the watch schedule? Did you guys ever have to sail through a squall?
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  #402  
Old 08-06-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Who cares about the auto pilot when you are in last place!
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  #403  
Old 08-06-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Simple question....did the Captain not want to fly the spinnaker? Did he not want to fly it on his shift? Did he not feel comfortable flying it at night? Did he express either of these feelings?
I think "Harry" saw rockdawg and me flying it competently and felt he could too—and was far too macho to admit that he needed it taken down.

And even after it sank in that we needed to use autohelm, Harry still maintained, against all evidence, that autohelm really couldn't be used for flying a spinnaker. (This guy had a truly massive machismo problem.) That's why he didn't, and kept messing it up, even after July 19.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
How many days before the race did you arrive? When the sail maker showed you the kite, why didn’t he show you how the net was to be rigged on the boat? How did you guys fly the kite? For example, did it have a sock? Please walk me through the gybing procedure. Why didn’t you guys pole out the genoa at night so Harry could sail wing-on-wing? What was the watch schedule? Did you guys ever have to sail through a squall?
There was no formal watch schedule—Harry was far too disorganized for that, and it wasn't the sort of environment where rockdawg or I could propose one. We did sail through squalls. See above answer for wing-on-wing answer. Kite had a sock, and there was a net, but after the net got fully tangled once (thanks to some remarkable, net-proof mess-up of Harry's), we stopped using it. (Perhaps this was a mistake.)
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Old 08-06-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

There is substantive controversy here for sure. In the circumstances, I find the technicality of the NOR to be pretty deminimis. People were fearing for their well being from physical threats to deprivation of food and water on an ill prepared boat.

Did anyone see the movie Naked Gun many years ago, when OJ Simpson's character gets shot hundreds of times but doesnt' go down, until he finally keeps backing up and puts his hand on the stove, then pulls it back and says "ouch". Slapstick humor that the stove shouldn't have mattered. The autopilot was the stove in this story.
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  #405  
Old 08-06-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
There is substantive controversy here for sure. In the circumstances, I find the technicality of the NOR to be pretty deminimis. People were fearing for their well being from physical threats to deprivation of food and water on an ill prepared boat.

Did anyone see the movie Naked Gun many years ago, when OJ Simpson's character gets shot hundreds of times but doesnt' go down, until he finally keeps backing up and puts his hand on the stove, then pulls it back and says "ouch". Slapstick humor that the stove shouldn't have mattered. The autopilot was the stove in this story.

Never understood this part of the equation. The boat/ crew were wounded. Why not triage and use all the resources to mitigate the injury? Seems like they were out of the race on day one. Who would have known if they used the auto pilot anyway? Or care? DSQ?DNF? Sounds like they never started. Dysfunction on all levels for this boat. I guess each got what they deserved.
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  #406  
Old 08-06-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Did anyone see the movie Naked Gun many years ago, when OJ Simpson's character gets shot hundreds of times but doesnt' go down, until he finally keeps backing up and puts his hand on the stove, then pulls it back and says "ouch". Slapstick humor that the stove shouldn't have mattered. The autopilot was the stove in this story.
I, for one, beg to differ: It sounds to me like the autopilot was THE rule-breaker in the minds of both the Skipper and "Jane" and they resented the crew demanding it be used.

Can someone kindly explain why using an autopilot whilst under spinnaker would be somehow safer than manual steering? Unless you've got a total novice on the helm I just don't get why it was even considered...
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  #407  
Old 08-06-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
There is substantive controversy here for sure. In the circumstances, I find the technicality of the NOR to be pretty deminimis. People were fearing for their well being from physical threats to deprivation of food and water on an ill prepared boat.
^^^^This!

I think the interest in the rules is not so much to find fault with RDawg/Jake over even Cap'n Furious - but to try to see how the TransPac RA dealt with this situation vis-a-vis those rules. At least that's the angle I see.

In any case, the use of the AP in relation to the rule is not the real issue...it's the penalty for that use that's at question here. And the "Penalties" notice LetsGo posted above leaves a tremendous amount of squish on that issue. Assuming an automatic DSQ is errant I would say.
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  #408  
Old 08-06-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
I, for one, beg to differ: It sounds to me like the autopilot was THE rule-breaker in the minds of both the Skipper and "Jane" and they resented the crew demanding it be used.

Can someone kindly explain why using an autopilot whilst under spinnaker would be somehow safer than manual steering? Unless you've got a total novice on the helm I just don't get why it was even considered...
Running off, a spinnaker will tend to oscillate somewhat. An auto pilot will ignor this and steer a relatively steady course. A novice driver will tend to "chase" the spinnaker, aggravating the oscillation and, in short order, leading to a wipe-out. Frankly, leaving the owner and his erstwhile crewlady driving with the spinny up was asking for problems.
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  #409  
Old 08-06-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
Unless you've got a total novice on the helm I just don't get why it was even considered...
From what both RD and Jake have said ( more than once ) that was the issue

Also, by what Jake recently posted, the use of A/P was a non-issue as far as the rules and being DQ'ed. Personally, based only on what RD and Jake posted, the skipper was operating under diminished capacity and the crew did what was necessary to bring the boat and her crew in unharmed.
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Old 08-06-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

So the Captain of the ship, the owner of the vessel, who has the most to lose and has to pay for a broken boat says he doesn't feel comfortable using it, yet you believe how you and Rockdawg "feel" and "know better" even though neither of you have any prior experience, trumps the Captain and owners wishes on his own boat. How does that work?

Its his boat, not yours. Where do you get off telling him what to do with it. You've got no skin in the game.

Don't feed me that line of crap your lives were in danger either, neither the race organizers nor the CG nor the US Navy believed that or they would have truly intervened.

Sure your were uncomfortable, sure you had an incompetent yelling verbally abusive Captain who you willingly signed up for without doing due diligence. You knew eventually youd land and get away from him. He didn't put you guys in danger really...he just ran a slow boat to Hawaii. He never threatened you or Rockdawg till you escalated things and tried to seize control of his boat No one else wanted either of you as you had a lack of experience not only overall, but with them.

Here's what really happened. You and Rockdawg couldn't find a ride with the legitimate racers because you neither had experience nor had raced previously on well formed teams who knew each other. Ill bet they looked at your and Rockdawgs previous experience if you even applied to others and passed. So you found this boat....and in your rush to gain experience and his to build his resume ignored many many red flags.

If it was your first really blue water and his first race why wouldn't you wait and go on a boat where you could learn from more experienced crew? Hopefully you teach that to others. Instead you pick the LEAST experienced captain with suspect crew making you the most experienced people on the boat.

Didn't that scare you, deter you before you even got on to leave the dock. You and Rockdawg with virtually no experience being the two most experienced on the boat. What did you guys think you were going for a day sail. Its an open ocean race. For many days, but you seem to minimize that. Another sign of lack of judgment...you finished last before you even left the dock because of your disadvantage to the rest of the fleet in experience.

Once underway you dont like the yelling, you don't like the direction and of course you know better.....with someone else's property in someone else's race he paid money to enter. Maturity would b to try and calm the situation deal with it until landfall. It seems you just waved meat at the tiger though and forced confrontations left and right till some got physical. Her we go...two abled bodied men vs. an old slight Captain, a woman whose his business partner, and HIS 86 year old mother. Did it ever occur to you he was scared for his life once you started trying to rest control of the vessel from him?

This has read like Aesops fairy tale from the beginning, with lawsuits, calls to the US Navy etc. Imagine had you tried this with 3 able bodied seamen who didn't want to listen to your whining and shut of your water and wouldn't fly the spinnaker. Would you have struck them and tried to mutiny. I doubt it. You know you could against the feeble man and his 86 year old mother, so you did.

Your lucky he didn't have a gun, your lucky he didn't have you arrested if the story is true as told once you hit land. You lucky there was no injury from getting on what we know now was an ill prepared boat and just as bad a completely novice crew.

I guess what I really cant understand What possessed you to risk you life knowing the experience of this crew, which you knew before you left was berift of talent to cross 2000 miles of open ocean. In a race no less, not a cruise.

I spend more preparation time for my boat and my trip planning on my annual trip from the Chesapeake to Long Island where I can duck in if the weather, conditions or the boat breaks or if its too bad than you did. And you teach people to sail.

To me the experience we all should learn from this is not the fairy tale which has more than your sides to it or race rules Safety first....not recklessness. You both broke the cardinal rule.....safety first. Part of safety is having enough experience on board to handle the trip and any emergencies which could occur. If there are doubts about the boat or the crews readiness safety dictates you don't go. You both had doubts and went...doubts you overrode for who knows why. You could have said no and not put yourselves in the situation...you weren't enslaved to go, but you took a risk. Risk avoidance is also part of safety.
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