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  #491  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Probably the only person involved I would take on my boat

Jake - seriously - assuming one mutiny on the resume doesn't keep you from ever getting another ride, you owe it to yourself to get on a boat with a competent and semi-sane skipper and crew to see how things are done. See how watch schedules are set, how the crew races and practices together, does MOB drills, goes to Safety-At-Sea seminars, and 1,000 other things you never saw on your trip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
If you go over to the SA site under the title of "86 year old in the pit" there is a picture of the boat with Shirley. I get the feeling that she may well have been the most competent person aboard that boat and her telling the "story" may well be the most accurate. I still don't get the need for a "film crew", but who knows the reasoning?
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  #492  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

I've only been sailing for a few years and crewing on a local j105 for just this summer only, but FWIW, here is my take:

"Harry" was in way over his head. He was inexperienced in both sailing and skippering. He had zero ability to manage either his boat or his crew. This was obviously apparent to the more experienced crew that turned him down before RD and Jake enlisted. However, these two gents did not have the experience under their belt to realize that Harry was incompetent.

From what I've been reading, the Transpac race is skippered and crewed by best of the best with only dedicated racing boats specifically built and outfitted for the task. Aquarius was a fish out of water and should not have been in the race from the start. That was all Harry's doing. You don't race with your 90 yo mother on board. Sorry. A three hour tour around the Del Boca Vista harbor, yes. Racing, no.

The hell with chain of command and law of the sea and NOR's or whatever. This isn't the Navy and this boat didn't belong in a race the way it was being run. Those rules do not apply. RD and Jake sensed disaster it but it was only confirmed after they had already departed. They had every right to compel Harry to either turn around or make it safely to the closest port. They were misled from the start. Add to that the possibility that you may run out of water then they had all the more reason to do what they did.

Frankly, I give them credit for at least trying to stay in the race and continuing on with the hope that they would be penalized rather than disqualified to actually finish the race, ala the movie Cool Runnings when they carried the bobsled over the finish line or when a hurt marathoner walks across the finish line as the sun is setting and everyone else has gone home.

They did what they could to urge the skipper to alter his plans, including asking for help from the race organizers, CG and the US Navy. But RD and Jake only resorted to physical force when it was being used on them.

If I get were to get into a car as a passenger and realize the driver was drunk, I wouldn't sit quietly and wait till we got to where we were going. Harry was simply incompetent and once I realized I had indeed put my life in his inept hands I would have tried to do all that was legally (by US law) and morally right to remedy the situation.

Chef and Sal, you guys are racers. But this boat and its crew were not. At least not by the standards you judge them by. I can put racing decals and numbers on a '78 chevy nova and enter it into the daytona 500, if they let me, but I'm no race car driver and a nova is no race car. Simply put, you guys are professional racers, the transpac is a professional race and Harry had no business being in that race and misrepresenting himself and his boat. I'm glad that races like these are open to amateurs. But if you are one, you better represent yourself as such and make it clear to the crew who are putting their lives in your hands.
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  #493  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowButSteady View Post
Finally, how is "Skippy" going to get his boat back to SoCal? Is Chef gonna crew for him?
Now that would be a story.


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  #494  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

FYI the laws pertaining to mutiny do not differentiate between racing, cruising, good, or bad skippers

Not saying I would say YES SIR and sail over Niagara Falls or something, but we teh Interwebs Juriez is far from 100% on if things had got that far.
YMMV and IANAL


Quote:
Originally Posted by weinie View Post
I've only been sailing for a few years and crewing on a local j105 for just this summer only, but FWIW, here is my take:

"Harry" was in way over his head. He was inexperienced in both sailing and skippering. He had zero ability to manage either his boat or his crew. This was obviously apparent to the more experienced crew that turned him down before RD and Jake enlisted. However, these two gents did not have the experience under their belt to realize that Harry was incompetent.

From what I've been reading, the Transpac race is skippered and crewed by best of the best with only dedicated racing boats specifically built and outfitted for the task. Aquarius was a fish out of water and should not have been in the race from the start. That was all Harry's doing. You don't race with your 90 yo mother on board. Sorry. A three hour tour around the Del Boca Vista harbor, yes. Racing, no.

The hell with chain of command and law of the sea and NOR's or whatever. This isn't the Navy and this boat didn't belong in a race the way it was being run. Those rules do not apply. RD and Jake sensed disaster it but it was only confirmed after they had already departed. They had every right to compel Harry to either turn around or make it safely to the closest port. They were misled from the start. Add to that the possibility that you may run out of water then they had all the more reason to do what they did.

Frankly, I give them credit for at least trying to stay in the race and continuing on with the hope that they would be penalized rather than disqualified to actually finish the race, ala the movie Cool Runnings when they carried the bobsled over the finish line or when a hurt marathoner walks across the finish line as the sun is setting and everyone else has gone home.

They did what they could to urge the skipper to alter his plans, including asking for help from the race organizers, CG and the US Navy. But RD and Jake only resorted to physical force when it was being used on them.

If I get were to get into a car as a passenger and realize the driver was drunk, I wouldn't sit quietly and wait till we got to where we were going. Harry was simply incompetent and once I realized I had indeed put my life in his inept hands I would have tried to do all that was legally (by US law) and morally right to remedy the situation.

Chef and Sal, you guys are racers. But this boat and its crew were not. At least not by the standards you judge them by. I can put racing decals and numbers on a '78 chevy nova and enter it into the daytona 500, if they let me, but I'm no race car driver and a nova is no race car. Simply put, you guys are professional racers, the transpac is a professional race and Harry had no business being in that race and misrepresenting himself and his boat. I'm glad that races like these are open to amateurs. But if you are one, you better represent yourself as such and make it clear to the crew who are putting their lives in your hands.
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  #495  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Coquina,

Just out of curiosity, what ARE the laws pertaining to mutiny as they pertain to this situation?
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  #496  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Estar over at SA posted this:


Quote:
Estar, on 04 Aug 2013 - 06:17, said:
I presume you found the current US law related to mutiny (below):

18 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2011 Edition
Title 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 107 - SEAMEN AND STOWAWAYS
Sec. 2192 - Incitation of seamen to revolt or mutiny
From the U.S. Government Printing Office, U.S. Government Printing Office Home Page


§2192. citation of seamen to revolt or mutiny
Whoever, being of the crew of a vessel of the United States, on the high seas, or on any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States, endeavors to make a revolt or mutiny on board such vessel, or combines, conspires, or confederates with any other person on board to make such revolt or mutiny, or solicits, incites, or stirs up any other of the crew to disobey or resist the lawful orders of the master or other officer of such vessel, or to refuse or neglect his proper duty on board thereof, or to betray his proper trust, or assembles with others in a tumultuous and mutinous manner, or makes a riot on board thereof, or unlawfully confines the master or other commanding officer thereof, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 800; Pub. L. 104–294, title VI, §601(a)(8), Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3498.)
Historical and Revision Notes
Based on title 18, U.S.C., 1940 ed., §483 (Mar. 4, 1909, ch. 321, §292, 35 Stat. 1146).
Minor changes were made in phraseology.
Amendments
1996—Pub. L. 104–294 substituted “fined under this title” for “fined not more than $1,000”.

AND . . . . .

"In 1995, the Supreme Court was again faced with the question of who qualifies for "seaman" status. In Chandris, Inc. v. Latsis, O'Connor again wrote the majority opinion and here laid out two elements necessary to qualify as a seaman under the Jones Act: "The worker's duties must contribute to the function of the vessel or to the accomplishment of its mission, and the worker must have a connection to a vessel in navigation (or an identifiable fleet of vessels) that is substantial in terms of both its duration and its nature."
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  #497  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SalNichols94804 View Post
What mode was the ap in when you guys were flying the kite? Compass, Wind, or Waypoint? How about when Harry was sailing with the AP? It's kind of an important question. Also, do you know if the compass had been swung when the ap was commissioned?
Wind.
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

What kind of AP was it?
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  #499  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Actually, I think the next section is more applicable:

Quote:
§2193. Revolt or mutiny of seamen
Whoever, being of the crew of a vessel of the United States, on the high seas, or on any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States, unlawfully and with force, or by fraud, or intimidation, usurps the command of such vessel from the master or other lawful officer in command thereof, or deprives him of authority and command on board, or resists or prevents him in the free and lawful exercise thereof, or transfers such authority and command to another not lawfully entitled thereto, is guilty of a revolt and mutiny, and shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 800; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, §330016(1)(I), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)
Historical and Revision Notes
Based on title 18, U.S.C., 1940 ed., §484 (Mar. 4, 1909, ch. 321, §293, 35 Stat. 1146).

Punishment provision for mandatory fine and imprisonment was rephrased in the alternative so as to vest power in the court to impose either a fine, or imprisonment, or both, in its discretion.

Amendments
1994-Pub. L. 103–322 substituted “fined under this title” for “fined not more than $2,000”.
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by weinie View Post
Actually, I think the next section is more applicable:
In the case of a recreational event such as this, I think the case would pivot on the definition of "work" (related to the definition of "Seaman") in O'Connor's opinion.

Though I'm not a lawyer, I don't see a real connection in this case.
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