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  #511  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Maybe the captain wasn't so stupid. He knew he was going where he wanted, when he wanted and he controlled everything, down to the food and water. He probably perceived these incidents as disputes, or arguments. Remember there was a language barrier.


And he apparently didn't charge them with anything, or if he tried to, no one believed him. Mutiny sir? Isn't that your boat over there where you docked it? Is anyone injured? No? We looked at you track, seems about like the other boats sir. No major or unusual deviation. Oh you disagreed about sails? I see. Have a nice day sir.
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Last edited by Sal Paradise; 08-07-2013 at 03:52 PM.
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  #512  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by weinie View Post
The hell with chain of command and law of the sea and NOR's or whatever. This isn't the Navy and this boat didn't belong in a race the way it was being run. Those rules do not apply. RD and Jake sensed disaster it but it was only confirmed after they had already departed. They had every right to compel Harry to either turn around or make it safely to the closest port. They were misled from the start. Add to that the possibility that you may run out of water then they had all the more reason to do what they did.
I vehemently (if that is a strong enough word) disagree with that. In fact, for me, that is the crux of the matter on this thread.

If something happens to one of the crew or the boat, the captain of that boat has the ultimate responsibility. If someone get hurt or lost at sea, it is his responsibility. THe buck stops with him and you can bet the lawyers land-side would agree with that if one of his crew got hurt.

Boating, in my opinion, has become too recreational. In what other endeavor can a person take command of a item without so much as a learner's permit and have so many people 's lives resting on their decision? How many Sea Rays are sold every year to people who have never driven a boat? How many Hatteras? How many sailboats? How often on this forum do we get a clown with ZERO sailing or offshore experience ready to sail to the carrib or S America or whatever and wants crew or asks which boat he should choose? And on this thread were the crew members (and captain) of this boat really experienced enough for the endeavor?

Like I said before, I think that people fail to appreciate the incredible responsibility put on a captain when they step on his boat. That does not change just because this is a recreational boat versus the US Navy. The sea does not care. The waves and weather do not care. THe law does not care. It is an old tradition and it is a good tradition. In the day of five minute fire truck arrivals and hospitals at every corner, many people forget that when you are out there, you are on your own. As such, it forces (or should force) the captain to have his crap together because he is legally and justifiably at fault for everything that happens on his boat. With that in mind, the idea of arguing with the captain, usurping his authority, or taking over his vessel is (and should be) a matter of last resort and only in dire circumstances. Mutiny (which I do not think RD or Jake really did) should be dealt with harshly, and legally, even on a recreational boat because the implications for the captain are still severe.

Were RD and Jake justified in what they did? I am not sure... I have not heard the other side of the story. But in doing it, they had better have exhausted all other options first and truly been in danger. Some of the key difference between me and others is that I hold the captain primarily responsible for everything that happened. All of this (or most of it) could have been identified long before the race started. He should have gotten to know the crew better and let the crew get to know him better. THey should have had more shakedown cruises. They should have had a very clear discussion beforehand on the water and supplies and how they would be rationed. THey should have discussed the chute and how and when they would fly it and each persons abilities. They should have had a clear understanding on the use (or lack of) the AP and things that would DQ them. That is NOT RD's or Jake's responsibility... that is the captains. I am still miffed that they shot off across the ocean with the miniscule amount of preparation they did. I think if the weather had ever turned bad, it really could have been life/death.

If the captain had been a leader, and had done all of these things, yet RD or Jake took over and broke the rules, then yes, I would probably have exactly the same view as Nick. But Nick, I suspect that you by nature and habit take care of all of that stuff before the boat leaves the dock? The crew and expectations are very clear before the dock lines are thrown off, right? So you place yourself on this boat, reading what you had read, and put yourself in the shoes of the captain and (rightfully) come unglued. Quite candidly, I think your bar is a lot higher and had you been captaining that boat, I suspect none of it would have happened because the prep you put in beforehand... and NOT because of your physical abilities or how you maintain your authority after the boat leaves the slip. Big difference.

This has been a great thread. It should be mandatory reading for anyone thinking about hoping on a boat as crew or captains looking for crew. It doesn't even have to be about racing. It's not. It is about the reality you face when you take off to sea, about how large the ocean is, how small the boat is, and how important it remains that respect, leadership, and camaraderie be maintained.

My opinions.

Brian
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  #513  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Ok then. If Rock was so concerned as to future actions by Capt, why was there not an arrest on landing? Why did Rock not file a complaint?
RD would have to answer that. It was his decision.

But as someone pointed out above, a US Attorney would have zero zilch nada interest in a case like this.

Last edited by TTC; 08-07-2013 at 02:51 PM. Reason: clarification
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  #514  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

AFAIK the crew that DID know him better bailed out. Perhaps the skipper learned that last second crew that didn't know him was his only shot at getting ANY crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
He should have gotten to know the crew better and let the crew get to know him better. THey should have had more shakedown cruises.

My opinions.

Brian
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  #515  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

"when I asked the commodore on the phone "
Yeah, one would hope the Commodore of a YC would be clued in, but the final word in these matters comes from a Protest Committee, not the Commodore, and their opinions may vary.
I have seen most of a fleet round the wrong mark entirely (there were two marks with the same buoy number, but the racing instructions seemed clear enough to us) and I have also seen most of a fleet round a mark on the wrong side (again, the instructions were clear but it wasn't the "logical" rounding) and in both cases, the PC and the Commodore said "That's true, but since most of the fleet got it wrong, we won't penalize it." Which instead of course radically penalized the folks who bothered to get it right.

Bottom line, the rules don't rule, unless it goes to a USSA appeals procedure.


As to "mutiny", I thought only crew could mutiny. And crew is not defined as "anyone on board" it is usually defined as paid, dragooned, or conscripted bodies under some obligation or compulsion to serve the captain. Captain can't bring charges of "mutiny" against his unpaid guests, now can he? Or did I miss the W4 and 1099 forms here?
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  #516  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Guests can be charged with interfering with the operation of a vessel.
If you look at the SA thread, by west coast ferderal court standards the crew WAS crew in the legal sense.
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  #517  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

It seems there was only one DNF in Division8 of the TransPac.

Jeanneau 43 Sun Odessy DS
9/DNF 9.0

Yeah, but it didn't take a minute to find.

Which might be corporate owned as shown by the USCG:

CHANTIERS JEANNEAU Year Built: 2002

Length (ft.): 42.1

Now, how a corporation owns a recreational vessel eludes me, since normally all the assets and functions of a corporation are, well, commercial by nature. But I'm so easily baffled by these things.

Identifying information removed from this post by Jeff_H, SailNet Moderator. The moderators have requested that all specific identification of the owner and boat be avoided. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by Jeff_H; 08-07-2013 at 03:38 PM.
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  #518  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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For the record, the moderators have discussed this thread and believe that it is a useful discussion. That said, the moderators have agreed, and are asking members to please avoid posting information which specifically identifies the parties.

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  #519  
Old 08-07-2013
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I find myself in total agreement with Brian as to the captain's responsibility.

It also the responsibility of the individual crew members to chose their "rides" prudently and take on checking for their own safe

. Getting blue water expetience is far different than Transpav racing. The allure of practicing on someone else's boat without the associated costs doesn't mean jyou signed up to be pampered.

I know you tale the responsibiltu seriously, as do I. One of this unqualified Captain's biggest mistakes was to take these two crewmen with no experience , sight unseen, relying on whatever they claimed they had done

I would want someone with me the same or more qualified in case I was incapacitated. The mote skill the better. But he was forced to scrape the bottom as the talent pool had already been taken.

It started wrong, continued to go wrong, escallated . Lessons learned

Dave
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  #520  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

I'm not familiar with these kinds of races so bear with me. Aren't there some kinds of basic requirements in order to be admitted to participate? Shouldn't some of those requirements, if any exist, address the issue of crew competence, possibly in the form of some kind of required shakedown cruise? It seems to me that this kind of problem could be avoided if the crew had to actually work together before signing on. Do they just accept anyone willing to pay an entry fee regardless of experience or SOME sort of qualifying information, relying on release forms to shield themselves from liability? A questionnaire with wording such as, "How many sea miles have this captain and crew recorded together?" Circle the best answer: 0 miles 25 miles 100+miles. If any answer is <100 miles then the boat does not get to participate.
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