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  #521  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I find myself in total agreement with Brian as to the captain's responsibility.

It also the responsibility of the individual crew members to chose their "rides" prudently and take on checking for their own safe

. Getting blue water expetience is far different than Transpav racing. The allure of practicing on someone else's boat without the associated costs doesn't mean jyou signed up to be pampered.

I know you tale the responsibiltu seriously, as do I. One of this unqualified Captain's biggest mistakes was to take these two crewmen with no experience , sight unseen, relying on whatever they claimed they had done

I would want someone with me the same or more qualified in case I was incapacitated. The mote skill the better. But he was forced to scrape the bottom as the talent pool had already been taken.

It started wrong, continued to go wrong, escallated . Lessons learned

Dave
I have to disagree with you on a few points

*Offshore racing is much harder than offshore cruising, the blue water experience is greater, not less. Crewing is riskier than taking your own boat out. Lots of unknowns, no matter how much you vet.

*From what I've read, RD and LG seem to have a good handle on sailing a boat. Did they have a stellar performance on this trip? No, but no one could of. They did the best with what they had to work with.

* BTW-as far fetched as some of the story sounds, anyone who has spent longer than a week offshore knows it could totally happen. And anyone who has been way way offshore, would also know that with the complete dysfunctional dynamics aboard, of the likes we see here, it could of been much much worse.

*I think RD and LG got that boat safely to land, in spite of the obstacles.

To gain experience you have to get experience ( genius, i know)
In my 25,000+ offshore miles, twice I have had a captain become incapacitated.
One time was during a storm on a sinking boat, offshore. I kept the boat afloat and on course. At the time, my total sea time was just a couple thousand, didn't know jack. Good crew is not always about knowledge.

My 2cents.
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  #522  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"when I asked the commodore on the phone "
Yeah, one would hope the Commodore of a YC would be clued in, but the final word in these matters comes from a Protest Committee, not the Commodore, and their opinions may vary.
I have seen most of a fleet round the wrong mark entirely (there were two marks with the same buoy number, but the racing instructions seemed clear enough to us) and I have also seen most of a fleet round a mark on the wrong side (again, the instructions were clear but it wasn't the "logical" rounding) and in both cases, the PC and the Commodore said "That's true, but since most of the fleet got it wrong, we won't penalize it." Which instead of course radically penalized the folks who bothered to get it right.

Bottom line, the rules don't rule, unless it goes to a USSA appeals procedure.


As to "mutiny", I thought only crew could mutiny. And crew is not defined as "anyone on board" it is usually defined as paid, dragooned, or conscripted bodies under some obligation or compulsion to serve the captain. Captain can't bring charges of "mutiny" against his unpaid guests, now can he? Or did I miss the W4 and 1099 forms here?
Well Rockdog was the one saying he was going to contact the California labor board, so he seemed to think he was an employee. His travel expenses were supposed to be paid, I am sure that would be considered compensation. By the way it sounds like RD is familiar with the labor board.


Bottom line is that no one on board was prepared for the trip. The captain was unprepared, and does seem to have a record of poor people skills as the crew that bailed out proves. The crew was obviously unprepared, though they seem to think they were, but being that it was RD's first time flying a spinnaker shows he was not experienced enough for this kind of race (being a down wind haul) and Jake had never been offshore. They had plenty of warning before they left that they should have bailed out. Certainly they noticed that the captain was at the least unorganized, one would think they would have checked on water as they all have responsibility for safety. Did they check to see if there were life vests and a life raft? Any threat of real danger was only perceived and obviously hyperbole, as they could have gotten water at any point if really needed by various methods (Coast Guard, shipping vessels and fellow yachtsmen) and it was not like they had lost electronics or anything. For me it would have been that there was no practice or advance meetings. Heck you do that for beer can racing, offshore come one. The crew was willing to not follow the rules from the get go. (long before the invented danger of running out of water they were using the auto pilot) It is obvious that RD and Jake had there own interests in mind, wanting to get experience offshore on someone ease's dime, not being part of a racing team from the start.

So we have a story of invented danger, with poor leadership and poor seamanship on all accounts. Sounds to me like someone wanted a reality show, why else have a camera crew there at take off and arrival? That really puzzles me, why have a camera crew? Perhaps a friend to take a few snapshots and a hug when you get back, but a camera crew? Seems someone had something brewing from the get go, wanted to be the next Jersey Shore or something.
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  #523  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

So this is all going to turn out to be a Fox reality special, sponsored by the restaurant for business purposes, which explains why the corporation owns the vessel.

Makes sense to me.

Smurph, your logic would be good except that it ignores one major consideration. All the organizations and events for several decades have been concerned with getting more participants, more publicity, more public interest in sailing. Until an event gets to be so big that it is unmanageable, they pretty much want every potential warm body until serious safety issues arise. And they usually let someone like the ORC decide what that means.

Which is not to say you don't have a point. You can't just buy into NASCAR and get on the track.
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  #524  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Dude, did you not see the part about the alfredo sauce? That's plenty tragic!
Alfredo sauce made by the girl friend of a bad sushi restaurant owner? Likely they were done a favor by having it thrown overboard! Sounds like Harry would not have known what to do with a fish if they caught one!
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  #525  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by miatapaul View Post
Alfredo sauce made by the girl friend of a bad sushi restaurant owner? Likely they were done a favor by having it thrown overboard! Sounds like Harry would not have known what to do with a fish if they caught one!
My biggest concern is what happened to the Fettucini?

If they were short on water how did they boil up the noodles?
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Last edited by aeventyr60; 08-07-2013 at 07:46 PM. Reason: water for noodles?
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  #526  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Now, how a corporation owns a recreational vessel eludes me, since normally all the assets and functions of a corporation are, well, commercial by nature. But I'm so easily baffled by these things.
The business buys a boat, uses it for business purposes, then writes off the expenses on its taxes. The only thing that surprises me is why doesn't every company already have its own boat!
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  #527  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

RD, Jake, After all the angst over the spinnaker...it would appear that you averaged roughly 4.86 kn for this trip. ( 2100 nautical miles/18 days) ??

Wouldn't it have been better to simply take the spinnaker down per the captain's wishes/orders on his shifts? Seems like a lot of time was lost and valuable energy expended unnecessarily messing with the spinnaker. His boat, his money, his rules..his race to lose..

Expend less energy = drink less water. It just seems like you could have acheived the same results ( 4.86 kn avg.) on a 43' boat with main and genoa..and had a more relaxing trip. Or just fly it on your shifts, and douse it for his shift.

Let's face it, aquarius was never going to be competitive in this race with 4 crew and an 86 y.o passenger. This was a delivery. Did the GF ever take shifts at the helm?
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Last edited by Tempest; 08-07-2013 at 08:36 PM.
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  #528  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
Harry suggested we go to Hilo island since the boat is heading to Hilo.

Another day of beautiful day. Sea calm and not much fun. We are definitely sailing to Hilo. It will get us to land and ends our misery sooner, but it will cost me more money to get home. Hilo has no marina, which will also pose a problem: no area for us to clean up before boarding the plane. Water is so short we are not allow to wash our face or brush teeth let alone sponge bath or shower on board.

.
Rock,
Every public beach park has showers and bathrooms. And here in Hawaii, there are public beach parks all over, that is why the homeless like it here so much, camp out (with ocean view) at a public beach park and have all the comforts of home, for free.

Just some information for your next "cruise" to hawaii.

You can even use this state "program" to pay for your return ticket home.:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...me-states.html
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Last edited by casey1999; 08-07-2013 at 07:57 PM.
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  #529  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
I vehemently (if that is a strong enough word) disagree with that. In fact, for me, that is the crux of the matter on this thread.

If something happens to one of the crew or the boat, the captain of that boat has the ultimate responsibility. If someone get hurt or lost at sea, it is his responsibility. THe buck stops with him and you can bet the lawyers land-side would agree with that if one of his crew got hurt.

Boating, in my opinion, has become too recreational. In what other endeavor can a person take command of a item without so much as a learner's permit and have so many people 's lives resting on their decision? How many Sea Rays are sold every year to people who have never driven a boat? How many Hatteras? How many sailboats? How often on this forum do we get a clown with ZERO sailing or offshore experience ready to sail to the carrib or S America or whatever and wants crew or asks which boat he should choose? And on this thread were the crew members (and captain) of this boat really experienced enough for the endeavor?

Like I said before, I think that people fail to appreciate the incredible responsibility put on a captain when they step on his boat. That does not change just because this is a recreational boat versus the US Navy. The sea does not care. The waves and weather do not care. THe law does not care. It is an old tradition and it is a good tradition. In the day of five minute fire truck arrivals and hospitals at every corner, many people forget that when you are out there, you are on your own. As such, it forces (or should force) the captain to have his crap together because he is legally and justifiably at fault for everything that happens on his boat. With that in mind, the idea of arguing with the captain, usurping his authority, or taking over his vessel is (and should be) a matter of last resort and only in dire circumstances. Mutiny (which I do not think RD or Jake really did) should be dealt with harshly, and legally, even on a recreational boat because the implications for the captain are still severe.

Were RD and Jake justified in what they did? I am not sure... I have not heard the other side of the story. But in doing it, they had better have exhausted all other options first and truly been in danger. Some of the key difference between me and others is that I hold the captain primarily responsible for everything that happened. All of this (or most of it) could have been identified long before the race started. He should have gotten to know the crew better and let the crew get to know him better. THey should have had more shakedown cruises. They should have had a very clear discussion beforehand on the water and supplies and how they would be rationed. THey should have discussed the chute and how and when they would fly it and each persons abilities. They should have had a clear understanding on the use (or lack of) the AP and things that would DQ them. That is NOT RD's or Jake's responsibility... that is the captains. I am still miffed that they shot off across the ocean with the miniscule amount of preparation they did. I think if the weather had ever turned bad, it really could have been life/death.

If the captain had been a leader, and had done all of these things, yet RD or Jake took over and broke the rules, then yes, I would probably have exactly the same view as Nick. But Nick, I suspect that you by nature and habit take care of all of that stuff before the boat leaves the dock? The crew and expectations are very clear before the dock lines are thrown off, right? So you place yourself on this boat, reading what you had read, and put yourself in the shoes of the captain and (rightfully) come unglued. Quite candidly, I think your bar is a lot higher and had you been captaining that boat, I suspect none of it would have happened because the prep you put in beforehand... and NOT because of your physical abilities or how you maintain your authority after the boat leaves the slip. Big difference.

This has been a great thread. It should be mandatory reading for anyone thinking about hoping on a boat as crew or captains looking for crew. It doesn't even have to be about racing. It's not. It is about the reality you face when you take off to sea, about how large the ocean is, how small the boat is, and how important it remains that respect, leadership, and camaraderie be maintained.

My opinions.

Brian
Brian,
I vehemently disagree with your vehement disagreement!

The notion of captain as master and commander, pun intended, goes back to days when "recreational" boating was non-existent and the laws of the sea evolved to cope with issues that arose on ships; ships that were used for commerce or warfare. Both of these institutions had inherent checks on a captain's authority. Kings would appoint admirals and captains and there would be an established chain of command. Merchants would need to answer to their kings, lenders, or stock holders. Thus, it was in the best interest of a fleet to make sure that any captain appointed to duty was capable of the task at hand and should the captain not perform his duties well, then his position, livelihood, or even his head was at risk! A shipowner hiring a captain to transport spices would not leave his valuable cargo and ship to someone who was not capable of making a successful run, lest he go bankrupt. Similarly, an admiral would not have incompetents commanding his ships in an engagement at sea. Should the admiral lose the battle, he might also lose his rank or even his head as well. Obviously, it would be in his best interest to find the best captains he could find to command his ships.

Recreational boating instills no such checks and balances. This is even more true in the age of the internet where anyone with some extra cash in their pocket can buy a fancy boat, post an craigslist ad for crew, call himself "captain" and sail off into the sunset. You can't just expect someone to blindly follow orders from someone who unknowingly, may have just yesterday been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder or schizophrenia!
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  #530  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by weinie View Post
Recreational boating instills no such checks and balances. This is even more true in the age of the internet where anyone with some extra cash in their pocket can buy a fancy boat, post an craigslist ad for crew, call himself "captain" and sail off into the sunset. You can't just expect someone to blindly follow orders from someone who unknowingly, may have just yesterday been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder or schizophrenia!
Crikey!! .. and to think I let TDW take me and Bentsailor aboard for that rather damp HCW 24-hour race not all that long ago...
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