Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013 - Page 54 - SailNet Community

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  #531  
Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by weinie View Post
Brian,
I vehemently disagree with your vehement disagreement!

The notion of captain as master and commander, pun intended, goes back to days when "recreational" boating was non-existent and the laws of the sea evolved to cope with issues that arose on ships; ships that were used for commerce or warfare. Both of these institutions had inherent checks on a captain's authority. Kings would appoint admirals and captains and there would be an established chain of command. Merchants would need to answer to their kings, lenders, or stock holders. Thus, it was in the best interest of a fleet to make sure that any captain appointed to duty was capable of the task at hand and should the captain not perform his duties well, then his position, livelihood, or even his head was at risk! A shipowner hiring a captain to transport spices would not leave his valuable cargo and ship to someone who was not capable of making a successful run, lest he go bankrupt. Similarly, an admiral would not have incompetents commanding his ships in an engagement at sea. Should the admiral lose the battle, he might also lose his rank or even his head as well. Obviously, it would be in his best interest to find the best captains he could find to command his ships.

Recreational boating instills no such checks and balances. This is even more true in the age of the internet where anyone with some extra cash in their pocket can buy a fancy boat, post an craigslist ad for crew, call himself "captain" and sail off into the sunset. You can't just expect someone to blindly follow orders from someone who unknowingly, may have just yesterday been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder or schizophrenia!
Tell you what...drop your rig on a member of your crew, turning he or she into a paraplegic, and you'll find out right quick what his and your insurance companies, and the U.S. court system thinks about your premise. Your boat, your wallet, your responsibility. I've done the last two Pac Cups, the first as crew boss/naviguesser, co-captain on a sled, and the second as skipper/navigator of my own boat. Both were impeccably prepared, and we still fixed a few things on the way over. I will tell you though, watching the GG bridge disappear aft and knowing that I was responsible for 8 and 5 lives respectively for the next 2200 nm was very sobering. I didn't sleep much.

Perhaps knowing exactly how much physical, mental, emotional, and financial effort is required to execute one of these programs is why I'm so spun up over this thread.
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  #532  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Weinie,
The point of this is you should find out if the captain is nuts before you leave the dock, not after you are at sea. The captain is responsible for the boat and crew. If you decide to tie his butt up because YOU think he is incapable, then YOU are responsible. The courts would have a heyday with you for your actions if you cannot prove that he is nuts. Just as RD, it is opinion...not fact! CD is correct!
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by SalNichols94804 View Post
Tell you what...drop your rig on a member of your crew, turning he or she into a paraplegic, and you'll find out right quick what his and your insurance companies, and the U.S. court system thinks about your premise. Your boat, your wallet, your responsibility. I've done the last two Pac Cups, the first as crew boss/naviguesser, co-captain on a sled, and the second as skipper/navigator of my own boat. Both were impeccably prepared, and we still fixed a few things on the way over. I will tell you though, watching the GG bridge disappear aft and knowing that I was responsible for 8 and 5 lives respectively for the next 2200 nm was very sobering. I didn't sleep much.

Perhaps knowing exactly how much physical, mental, emotional, and financial effort is required to execute one of these programs is why I'm so spun up over this thread.
July 4, 2012
3 children were killed off long island when a 34 foot Silverton, clearly overloaded with 27 people on it, capsized.

No charges where filed despite the fact that it was actively investigated by the local D.A. As there was no criminal negligence, I'm sure the insurance company would have to pay any claims if they arose. (The victims' parents were family of the boat owners, so perhaps this may be why no claims were made).

By your logic, the parents of the dead children would bear the blame for allowing their kids on that boat, despite the fact that they may have had no knowledge of what constitutes an overloaded boat.

So, the criminal justice system decided the captain actions weren't criminal. And you can't necessarily blame the dead children's parents for not knowing enough about the capacity of 34 foot Silvertons.

So where does the fault lie? I'm sure most here would agree that the blame lies with the captain. Yet the captain is a free man and his finances probably untouched.

What if one of the adults on that boat had raised issue with the captain? What if he or she called the coast guard on a cell phone and the CG said, "Well, there are no laws saying that there can't be 27 people on a 34' silverton, so we can't really do anything."
I know the analogy is not perfect here, but I hope you get the gist.
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Old 08-07-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
Crikey!! .. and to think I let TDW take me and Bentsailor aboard for that rather damp HCW 24-hour race not all that long ago...
I'll have you know there is nothing borderline about our schizophrenia .....

Actually that HCW* fiasco offers an interesting take on race v cruise preparedness. To get to the starting line we had to complete a coastal passage from Sydney Harbour to Lake Macquarie. This passage was pretty much hard on the wind most of the way, into a moderately nasty chop and windspeed that maxed out at between 35 and 40 knots. OK, so our girl has pretty good cockpit protection in cruising mode, but we didn't even need wet weather gear until we were motoring over the Swansea bar. It was in fact quite a pleasant passage.

To the race .... cockpit covers removed, six not two people on board, no auto pilot and really pressing on. Wind about the same though a lot more rain. Damn that was miserable. Other than a spirit of cameraderie and a crew that gave their all that was about the most miserable 24 hours I have ever spent on board a boat. Had I not been the skipper, I reckon I would have mutineered.

* HCW = Heaven Can Wait 24hour race for charity helod annually on Lake Macquarie NSW.
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  #535  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by weinie View Post
July 4, 2012
3 children were killed off long island when a 34 foot Silverton, clearly overloaded with 27 people on it, capsized.

No charges where filed despite the fact that it was actively investigated by the local D.A. As there was no criminal negligence, I'm sure the insurance company would have to pay any claims if they arose. (The victims' parents were family of the boat owners, so perhaps this may be why no claims were made).

By your logic, the parents of the dead children would bear the blame for allowing their kids on that boat, despite the fact that they may have had no knowledge of what constitutes an overloaded boat.

So, the criminal justice system decided the captain actions weren't criminal. And you can't necessarily blame the dead children's parents for not knowing enough about the capacity of 34 foot Silvertons.

So where does the fault lie? I'm sure most here would agree that the blame lies with the captain. Yet the captain is a free man and his finances probably untouched.

What if one of the adults on that boat had raised issue with the captain? What if he or she called the coast guard on a cell phone and the CG said, "Well, there are no laws saying that there can't be 27 people on a 34' silverton, so we can't really do anything."
I know the analogy is not perfect here, but I hope you get the gist.
In the example I cited in my previous post...a very good friend of mine and his insurance company paid out $6M. I can't speak for your example or your D.A. I can tell you what happened in this instance.
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by oceangirl View Post
I have to disagree with you on a few points

*Offshore racing is much harder than offshore cruising, the blue water experience is greater, not less. Crewing is riskier than taking your own boat out. Lots of unknowns, no matter how much you vet.

*From what I've read, RD and LG seem to have a good handle on sailing a boat. Did they have a stellar performance on this trip? No, but no one could of. They did the best with what they had to work with.

* BTW-as far fetched as some of the story sounds, anyone who has spent longer than a week offshore knows it could totally happen. And anyone who has been way way offshore, would also know that with the complete dysfunctional dynamics aboard, of the likes we see here, it could of been much much worse.


*I think RD and LG got that boat safely to land, in spite of the obstacles.

To gain experience you have to get experience ( genius, i know)
In my 25,000+ offshore miles, twice I have had a captain become incapacitated.
One time was during a storm on a sinking boat, offshore. I kept the boat afloat and on course. At the time, my total sea time was just a couple thousand, didn't know jack. Good crew is not always about knowledge.

My 2cents.
I agree...of course off shore racing is much harder and a different skill set than off shore cruising.....I have done both but never a 14 day race off shore. RD and Jake had 0 offshore race experience and one had no blue water experience even. Even more reason for them to want to learn and sign n with a veteran crew


The took this mans boat over when there really was no imminent danger been proved. Just they were " uncomfortable" The water issue is a straw argument

I would be careful ever including either of the, as crew to a race offshore or even a cruise lest their mutinous history repeat itself. They take no responsibility so they are bound to repeat their actions.
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  #537  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

RD and Jake would have been stunned to discover that most of us disconnect the hydraulic ram from the steering system on the way TO HI. LOL.

Come to think of it, seeing the looks on their faces when they started mashing AP buttons would have been priceless!
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Last edited by SalNichols94804; 08-07-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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  #538  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

[QUOTE=SalNichols94804;1070690]RD and Jake would have been stunned to discover that most of us disconnect the hydraulic ram from the steering system on the way TO HI. LOL.[/QUOTE

With all their "experience" in spinnaker flying wonder how many times they would have wrapped it without an auto pilot.
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Btw, like Robert Duvall said in Apocalypse Now "Charlie don't surf"...Charlie being your AP. it's just going to drive to an AWA. It can't feel the boat load up as the bow buries in the back of a roller, and IT can't/won't pump the wheel a couple of times to drive the bow down and break the boat loose to set her surfing. Using the AP, you're just really sailing in stop and go traffic.

And you're missing all of the real fun of doing the race.

Last edited by SalNichols94804; 08-07-2013 at 09:43 PM.
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by SalNichols94804 View Post
And you're missing all of the real fun of doing the race.
I think this is the point, to them it was not a race, but a resume builder on someone else's boat.
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