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  #761  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Smack, you gotta put the water thing into proper perspective. Mariners have been running low on water since before Columbus’ time. Yes, perhaps they left without topping off a tank, they also could have easily suffered a leak in a tank or line (sound familiar?), they could have had a stuck valve, cycling pump, sea water contamination, or even over usage (that is my guess). All we know is these guys were down at the halfway mark. What really counts is how they handled the adversity. It seems that only the boat owners were concerned with rationing and RD/ “Jake’s” only solution was to sail “faster” (isn’t that the whole point in racing anyway?) and not to conserve water.

One of my Dad’s stories was how the desalinators on his can in WWII couldn’t keep up with the boiler needs when they were screening for TF58. The Captain ordered the fresh water be TURNED OFF to the crew (except for meal times) and divert all available water to the boilers. A couple of crew who were caught sneaking water from an unguarded bib were brought to Captain’s Mast, confined, and subsequently reduced in rank and pay.

Smack, can you use your computer skills in reproducing for us the track’s from Yellow Brick? (link below) You might find the track very interesting. You can see that they were pretty much always below the rhumb line and pretty much the southernmost boat in their division. You can see pretty graphically that the wheels fell off at the halfway point. I suspect that this is about the time when reality and fatigue set in for the crew resulting in a series of really poor decisions being made. They probably lost a day here in their bickering and inability to set a single course. When they did their final course change to fetch Hilo, they were closer to Honolulu, albeit, the AP most likely couldn’t hold the deep wind angles required. Knowing that Tropical Storm Flossie was bearing down on the main island, why would they go there (impaired judgment from lack of experience?) Also, with water running short, wouldn’t you want to stay in the shipping lane if you needed help. Heck, RIMPAC is going on at that time and you can’t swing a cat without hitting a warship when you are within 500 nm of Pearl.

I’m not sure I would want to have a crew onboard, who didn’t personally familiarize themselves with everything on the boat. The last few days before a race or crossing are usually very hectic and things can be overlooked on even a well-run boat. That is why crew need to check and re-check everything. RD & Jake’s experience level was showing when they didn’t see the warning signs when they first stepped on the boat, and then not checking and helping get the boat ready for sea. Don’t get me wrong, “Harry” appeared to have made plenty of mistakes himself, but as he hasn’t responded to this thread so we can only speculate )and spin any scenario that suits our personal bias).

Transpac 2013 PUBLIC - Powered by Yellowbrick Tracking
George...

Here is where you and I disagree on a few things.

I will first say that Nick and I agree on the sanctity of the captain, as I believe he said in a previous thread. I believe in that because everything that goes wrong and all responsibilities are his in the end. The buck stops with him, so he demands considerable respect and as the recognized leader - period. I have already tried to express this in some detail earlier in this thread.

My issue here is that you guys say (or infer... correct me if I am wrong) RD and Jake should not have gotten on that boat in the first place. Seems that way to me too, but it was the captain that should not have let them on. He should take the blame for them being on that boat, not them. This is assuming he knew exactly what he was getting when they showed up and they were up front with their experience. Why didn't he try to get to know them before the race and spend time with them? Test their knowledge and their sailing skills? Let them test his? I am not suggesting months of prep. This isn't the AC for Gawd's sakes. But they could have at least had a decent idea ho they were going to get along... right??

SO they did or they didn't have enough water when they left? Although I see that as an important issue, the more important one is why didn't the captain sit down and explain to his crew the circumstances and why they were taping the faucets? Why he was rationing? Why he didn't fill the tanks? WHat their allowance on water should be?

Hell, they apparently couldn't even decide on whether to use the auto pilot or which course to steer! WHy didn't he tell them why they couldn't or shouldn't and which course to steer?

He couldn't fly a spinnaker at night (purportedly) while Jake and Rd could. Someone asked why they didn't split up their shifts. I ask you why HE didn't split them up? WHy didn't he set the watches?

Do I think RD and Jake, from the story we have read, screwed up? Yes, I do. I think a lot of the things that Nick have said make some sense. My issue, with all due respect, is that what RD an Jake did is kinda irrelevant because it was a lack of leadership from the captain that caused it. Nick says they shouldn't have been on that boat (right Nick?) and could have done a lot of things to make that ride better. I say maybe, maybe not, but if they were let on it then the Captain should have the responsibility for that and any short comings they had.

I personally think that Nick (and you George) have an issue with the OP here because of how they acted or things they did on the race. That may be true. Where I am coming from is that it is irrelevant because if the captain had been a leader, these issues would not have happened. THe reality is that I suspect Nick and yourself put yourselves in the captains shoes, and you get really PO'd (understandably) when you read this and imagine your crew doing that to you. Hey, more than most on here, I completely agree. But what I think you fail to see is that it would not have happened to you because you would have taken control. You would have explained. You would have resolved the issues probably before they ever left the dock. You would have had more preparation. ANd maybe (or maybe not), they would have never been on your boat to begin with... or they might have been the best crew you ever had. Seems to me that communication killed this voyage (in more ways than one).

I suspect RD and Jake didn't know what they didn't know. In some respects, this is like shooting the messenger. But like you guys, I take all and full responsibility for what happens on my boat. I have to. I raise kids on this boat and 'I'm sorry' or 'you shouldn't have' just doesn't cut it if they get hurt or killed. You think you get stressed before a race, try taking your children offshore. That is real stress (and pleasure).

Brian

PS I want to emphasize that my opinions are based on the fact that the owner has not responded so I am inferring a lot of stuff based solely on what I read from RD and Jake. The owner likely has a completely different story and may or may not have done some of the things above. But like you said George, his isn't here, so I am assuming (and we know what that stands for).
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  #762  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Bingo.
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  #763  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'm with you GB. And, yes, the water leak sounds very familiar! Maybe that's why I'm so interested in this whole water thing.

As you point out, the problem is we don't really know what the deal was. We only know that the skipper made a decision to forego taking on more water at the start, then "selectively" rationed it at a dangerously low level midway through the race. I'd love to know more details about this. Because I agree with The Sal-inator that everything in this story turns on this issue.

I'll see if I can figure out the YB thing.
They made it to Hawaii without running out of water right? So the water was not an issue. I would have much rather have sailed Oahu rather than Hilo. Oahu much better wind strength and direction (Hilo on Big Island blocks the trades, poor wind, and on top of that, if you miss Hilo, you will either run into a shear sea cliff or hot lava running into the sea. Better have a good engine.

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Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Smack, thank you for getting the Yellow Brick track up on a graphic. I think it will be helpful to illustrate what went on.


Dad, So “SalNichols94804” is “Nick” and not “Sal” ? (As they say, “you can’t tell the players without a scorecard”). I agree with the roles and responsibilities of the skipper/owner. He (or she) has the responsibility for everything and should act accordingly. That said, neither one of us would appreciate a crew taking over (or is it hijacking?) our boats. Just as the skipper has the over-all responsibility, the crew has the responsibility to be good crew.


Without being able to dialog with “Harry” how do we know that RD/”Jake” are accurately depicting the course of events? All we have are their original statements and their clarifications then comparing that to our own experiences. For example, did Jake or RD come out and clearly say that the skipper and his family were abusing the water rationing while imposing it only on them? Or were they merely complaining about the rationing itself and that lack of trust the family had for the crew? In the end, if we are only to take RD/Jake’s statements only at face value, where is the learning? Where is the teachable moment? You are right, this isn’t the AC (BTW, saw a couple of the Artemis races live – it was awesome!). This is one of the longest regularly scheduled point-to-point races on the planet however.


I believe that there was miss-communication from the start. RD and Jake over sold themselves in their resumes and telecons. As stated from that other poster, Harry was unprepared to participate in the race. RD, Jake and Harry all let their desire to do the race cloud their judgment. The endeavor started falling apart even before RD and Jake got to the marina. They started to polarize from the skipper from the start. Experience would have told them to go home. But once they signed on they should have been committed to the success of the endeavor which they failed to do when they started usurping the authority of the skipper.


They were brought on as navigator and spinnaker expert. They talked about the skipper taking over the function and that he sailed rhumb line and above. Yet the Yellow Brick showed them south of rhumb and south of the rest of the fleet. The wild gyrations started at about midpoint about the time that they were clicking on the AP, talking to USCG, RC, rationing water, "fighting" for control etc. The course did straighten out once they decided (cajoled?) to divert to Hilo. IMHO, the navigation was poor. I was not born an “ace” spinnaker driver. I was taught. I was mentored into the driver I am today. I am happy to pass that knowledge on. It’s my duty to mentor “junior drivers” coming up through the ranks. Why couldn’t Jake do the same? As an instructor, he must know how to apply different teaching techniques and reach even difficult students? Going up the mast in the middle of the night, peals and gybes in squalls are all part of the game. If you don’t like it, perhaps ocean sailing is not for you.


Now, let’s dump on Harry, who hasn’t the opportunity to defend himself. We do know he was successful in doing a pair of MDR-Cabo (or was it SD-PV?) races in the past. These are over 1,000nm or about half the distance to Hawaii. From the other poster, we can assume that it was on the strength of having some really skilled crew with him. Harry’s first mistake was perhaps not understanding this and reading much more into his new crew’s qualifications than really were there. He should have been better prepared for the race. On my PacCup, I started to work on the boat a year ahead of time and that boat was a Van Isle vet. He should have demanded that the crew come out early and prep the boat. (“paying” for crew by buying their plane tickets doesn’t seem to be a smart thing unless you are willing to buy lots of tickets). He should have been a better planner - he didn’t have the proper crew or the numbers given every one’s skill set. “Mother” and Jane probably should have flown, not sailed. If on board, they should have done the mid-day watch and flown wing on wing. Mid-day conditions are almost always too light to fly a 1.5 oz kite (Jake should have known this). Sushi chef training probably doesn’t afford the same leadership skills as does the military or lots of crewing/sailing experience. Harry should have been more self-aware and worked on his command presence. Finally, he shouldn’t have deviated from his original game plan. The fighting with the crew added at least a day to his trip (see Smack’s graphic) and the diversion to Hilo, the better part of another one. (Besides being stupid when the long range GRIBS are predicting a tropical storm heading your way.)


As I said in my first post I feel bad for RD (and Jake too). This was a crappy experience and not really thier fault. He and Jake just didn’t have the experience to see the train wreck coming and once on board, couldn’t keep it from escalating and ultimately blowing up. They risked a lot to their reputations by going public and I hope it doesn’t hurt them in the end.
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  #765  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Day 16, July 23
283 nm to go. Water temp 85.4F.

Since the heated oral exchange between Jakeues and the owners, they escalated his punishment. His night watch duty has been removed. Fucck lucky him... Now I have to do more ... Haha.

They intend to impose more rules to make him more miserable. It is all about control. Instead of being a leader to bring out the best in others, they bring the worse from their crew. It certainly not a right way to be a host or a leader. I guess some are destined to be great men and some are destined to be little 'men' in their own little world.

Back to original topic. Wind is good, we were moving fast. Wind from east at 15 to 19 knots. Still has current behind us at 0.6 Kn.

At the current condition, we may be at Molokai light at Thursday dawn. Be in marina at dusk.

I studied charts yesterday to work out my approach. Book says don't go in harbor at night, not sure what is the deal. The harbor is well marked, plenty of water and we will have almost full moon at nite. I will let Harry makes the decision. But at the worst, I am comfortable to go in in the dark.

Above from RD's log. RD even questions a chart book. There are many good reasons to not go into Ala Wai Channel at night, many boats run aground both leaving and coming in at night. When you run aground, you boat is done, you are on coral reef with big breaking swell pounding. Have you ever tried to navigate at night in a channel with the lights of one of the biggest cities in the US as your back drop. Do you think you can make out the bouey marker lights, or where those street signal lights. And RD was the navigator?

Also note RD says "plenty of water", looks like Capt did good with his water rationing......
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  #766  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

George, you nailed it. Cant reply further but we basically agree on everything.
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  #767  
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Smack, thank you for getting the Yellow Brick track up on a graphic. I think it will be helpful to illustrate what went on.


Dad, So “SalNichols94804” is “Nick” and not “Sal” ? (As they say, “you can’t tell the players without a scorecard”). I agree with the roles and responsibilities of the skipper/owner. He (or she) has the responsibility for everything and should act accordingly. That said, neither one of us would appreciate a crew taking over (or is it hijacking?) our boats. Just as the skipper has the over-all responsibility, the crew has the responsibility to be good crew.


Without being able to dialog with “Harry” how do we know that RD/”Jake” are accurately depicting the course of events? All we have are their original statements and their clarifications then comparing that to our own experiences. For example, did Jake or RD come out and clearly say that the skipper and his family were abusing the water rationing while imposing it only on them? Or were they merely complaining about the rationing itself and that lack of trust the family had for the crew? In the end, if we are only to take RD/Jake’s statements only at face value, where is the learning? Where is the teachable moment? You are right, this isn’t the AC (BTW, saw a couple of the Artemis races live – it was awesome!). This is one of the longest regularly scheduled point-to-point races on the planet however.


I believe that there was miss-communication from the start. RD and Jake over sold themselves in their resumes and telecons. As stated from that other poster, Harry was unprepared to participate in the race. RD, Jake and Harry all let their desire to do the race cloud their judgment. The endeavor started falling apart even before RD and Jake got to the marina. They started to polarize from the skipper from the start. Experience would have told them to go home. But once they signed on they should have been committed to the success of the endeavor which they failed to do when they started usurping the authority of the skipper.


They were brought on as navigator and spinnaker expert. They talked about the skipper taking over the function and that he sailed rhumb line and above. Yet the Yellow Brick showed them south of rhumb and south of the rest of the fleet. The wild gyrations started at about midpoint about the time that they were clicking on the AP, talking to USCG, RC, rationing water, "fighting" for control etc. The course did straighten out once they decided (cajoled?) to divert to Hilo. IMHO, the navigation was poor. I was not born an “ace” spinnaker driver. I was taught. I was mentored into the driver I am today. I am happy to pass that knowledge on. It’s my duty to mentor “junior drivers” coming up through the ranks. Why couldn’t Jake do the same? As an instructor, he must know how to apply different teaching techniques and reach even difficult students? Going up the mast in the middle of the night, peals and gybes in squalls are all part of the game. If you don’t like it, perhaps ocean sailing is not for you.


Now, let’s dump on Harry, who hasn’t the opportunity to defend himself. We do know he was successful in doing a pair of MDR-Cabo (or was it SD-PV?) races in the past. These are over 1,000nm or about half the distance to Hawaii. From the other poster, we can assume that it was on the strength of having some really skilled crew with him. Harry’s first mistake was perhaps not understanding this and reading much more into his new crew’s qualifications than really were there. He should have been better prepared for the race. On my PacCup, I started to work on the boat a year ahead of time and that boat was a Van Isle vet. He should have demanded that the crew come out early and prep the boat. (“paying” for crew by buying their plane tickets doesn’t seem to be a smart thing unless you are willing to buy lots of tickets). He should have been a better planner - he didn’t have the proper crew or the numbers given every one’s skill set. “Mother” and Jane probably should have flown, not sailed. If on board, they should have done the mid-day watch and flown wing on wing. Mid-day conditions are almost always too light to fly a 1.5 oz kite (Jake should have known this). Sushi chef training probably doesn’t afford the same leadership skills as does the military or lots of crewing/sailing experience. Harry should have been more self-aware and worked on his command presence. Finally, he shouldn’t have deviated from his original game plan. The fighting with the crew added at least a day to his trip (see Smack’s graphic) and the diversion to Hilo, the better part of another one. (Besides being stupid when the long range GRIBS are predicting a tropical storm heading your way.)


As I said in my first post I feel bad for RD (and Jake too). This was a crappy experience and not really thier fault. He and Jake just didn’t have the experience to see the train wreck coming and once on board, couldn’t keep it from escalating and ultimately blowing up. They risked a lot to their reputations by going public and I hope it doesn’t hurt them in the end.
Another bingo.
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  #768  
Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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You forgot guns, keeping watch while single handing, avoiding paying taxes on your boat, derelict boats and probably a few that I've forgotten
INSURANCE!!! We need to know if the boat was insured? If not, then they are bad bad people with no moral compass.

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Old 08-13-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
...
Also note RD says "plenty of water", looks like Capt did good with his water rationing......
Given the context of that phrase, it looks more like he was referring to the depth of the water at the entrance to the harbor.
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Old 08-14-2013
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Re: Mutiny at Dawn - Transpac Race 2013

Agree -- I also read the "plenty of water" in the log as referring to his judgment of the channel.
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