70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay... - Page 4 - SailNet Community

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  #31  
Old 08-08-2013
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

I'm such a wimp, that when I'm coming from further N up the bay to Camden, I go all the way south around number "12" and skip the whole area. A few more miles.

Even though we're down east almost every year, we don't live there, so we try and give the rocks a bit of room to move around

On the other hand, I have hit rock right in our back yard near Woods Hole. Good thing it was a center boarder and we hit the board only square on, could have duplicated this mess. Watched the pennant go slack and listened to the scraping!

Our house is glass (fiber), so we ain't throwin stones at this guy!
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  #32  
Old 08-08-2013
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

I wonder if this was one of the Hylass with carbon fiber standing rigging. If so I wonder if that could have played a factor in the dismasting?
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  #33  
Old 08-08-2013
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

Holy smokes. I've been aboard a Hylas 70 at a boat show. My recollection is you would struggle to wrap your arms around that mast. It's huge. Main shrouds had to be in inch or more. I can't imagine what it would have been like for it to come down.
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  #34  
Old 08-08-2013
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
Tim,
For those of us who do not know the area, could you please show us where this boat went aground and what his route was and (if different) should have been. Would he have been sailing between Lasell I and Mouse I or trying to get between Lasell and Goose Rock?
Thanks
I'm 95% sure, Archangel fetched up on the lone rock about 1/2nm NE of East Goose Rocks on this screen shot of my ipad.

They stuck the connected ledge just to the SE of the "*" ="obstruction that covers". This ledge and rock were between 2 and 5' below(not long after HW) the surface when they fetched up.

A friend that came upon Archangel not long after the grounding, thought it was a motorboat, anchored(the rig was gone, the boat flat and upright).

After 8 more feet of tide ebbed away, I suspect it was then she layed over and the photos of the article were taken. To her port is in fact the rock * about 3 feet above LW(which is where it should be at LW, I've passed dozens of times).

I stuck a bearing line which is the general safe passage between the rock they hit and lasell Island, the yellow land mass to the North. This is a busy passage, many boats travel through, and it's nearly a straight line between Camden Harbor and Pulpit Harbor.

There's nearly a quarter mile of safe water but Tim is right, it's best to favor the Lasell Island side.

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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by T37SOLARE View Post
I wonder if this was one of the Hylass with carbon fiber standing rigging. If so I wonder if that could have played a factor in the dismasting?
I don't believe so... The 70 known to use composite has a black mast, and as best as I can tell from various pics of ARCHANGEL, she appears to have wire... I checked the boat out pretty closely in Hampton a couple of years ago, I probably would have noticed/remembered if they'd gone with something as exotic as carbon or PBO...

Here's a pic of the 70 rigged with carbon...



Hylas 70 - SmartRigging


I just don't get going with something as cutting edge on a cruising boat like a Hylas 70... Interestingly, the recent rig failure in the Transpac of the Gunboat 66 PHAEDO, occurred on the only Gunboat built so far using PBO rigging...





Quote:
We may never know the exact reason why PHAEDO's rig succumbed. The crew wisely cut it away to preserve PHAEDO's hulls. She is the only GUNBOAT that chose to utilize PBO rigging. While it can reduce windage and save weight, it's track record for reliability would not be regarded as the best today. The manner of the rig's loss, in our opinion, is consistent with the failure of a windward diamond shroud. All GUNBOAT's today are specified with aramid shrouds and carbon diamond stays, which reflect industry best practices at this time.

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  #36  
Old 08-08-2013
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by Cap'n Russ View Post
Since the mast was designed to handle lateral loads, not compressive loads (other than those necessary to keep the mast upright), if the grounding did force the keel up, it's quite possible that could have been enough compressive force to cause the mast to break.
Uh, no. The purpose of the standing rigging is to translate nearly all lateral forces on the sails/spars into compressive force on the mast -- vertical, and in column. Wire goes into tension, spreaders and mast into compression. Lateral force on the mast 'panels' is quite minimal, relative to compressive force inside the spar.

There is a considerable difference in inertial energy between a hard grounding and the forces experienced as the boat interacts with water. While the total forces may be similar, hitting a rock generates much higher acceleration and impulse energy. Could very easily snap a wire or knock the mast far enuf out of column it buckles. Or the idea that the sudden lurch forward tensioned the rig & thus compressed the mast beyond design tolerances. Falling off a big wave into water will jar a boat, but that's slow motion compared to 29,000 lbs of ballast hitting a granite ledge. The boat will stop, more or less at the point of impact. Very efficient transfer of energy -- and lots of that will be dissipated thru the rig.
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

Well I tell ya, all this waiting for Jeff H & Bob P is worse than waiting for chapter 2 of RD wild adventure
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  #38  
Old 08-08-2013
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim R. View Post
I have no idea which rocks they hit or what course they were steering.

A straight course from Camden harbor(known departure port) and Pulpit harbor(supposed destination) puts you right through the rocks NE of Goose Rock. Maybe their chart plotter had the detail filtered out when selecting the range to include both harbors. Maybe they did not zoom in to an adequate range to show that detail and also traced their route to ensure there were no obstructions.

This a only a guess and only the crew of that boat know exactly what happened.
Yes, great point. The layers of printed detail in these electronic charts seems unpredictable. Sometimes the depths and objects seem to randomly appear and disappear when changing magnification. I have definitely become alarmed at times to see a dangerous object just disappear in certain layers.
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
Yes, great point. The layers of printed detail in these electronic charts seems unpredictable. Sometimes the depths and objects seem to randomly appear and disappear when changing magnification. I have definitely become alarmed at times to see a dangerous object just disappear in certain layers.
That can be a real issue with e-chart/plotter usage, but not likely applicable in this case, the range is simply not that great...

TomMaine has already tried to make that ledge 'disappear' by zooming out, it didn't happen...

Can't wait for pics, Max. I think the zoom in wouldn't apply here.
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
That can be a real issue with e-chart/plotter usage, but not likely applicable in this case, the range is simply not that great...

TomMaine has already tried to make that ledge 'disappear' by zooming out, it didn't happen...

Can't wait for pics, Max. I think the zoom in wouldn't apply here.
It could have been a factor, not a likely one, but the point about the e-charts is good. I have seen this layer disappearing phenom in more than one brand of chart: Garmin, Jeppesen, and NOAA ECSs. It's not something that often gets mentioned as a danger with e-charts. It seems that sometimes a programmer just forgets to keep objects in the picture from layer to layer. IMO, all dangerous rock notations should start appearing very early and remain to the largest scale.

C-Map (Jeppesen) shows that rock ("covers and uncovers") close and all the way out past 100,000 with no break in layers.
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Last edited by smurphny; 08-08-2013 at 08:59 PM.
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