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  #71  
Old 08-12-2013
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by asdf38 View Post
Yeah but the rig isn't stopping the hull here it's the other way around. So when looking at why the rig came down the 70-80000k lbs don't enter the equation. Not if you're just looking at the forces needed to stop the rig anyway.

Yeah the wind factors in too but we know 10kt of wind can't bring down the rig, even if the boat is stopped. Wind forces would also depend on the point of sail.

I still think it's possible that the hull flexed when it hit and put upwards pressure on the bottom of the keel stepped mast. Yes this is exactly what the mast is designed for but I could see this being much larger than the normal forces.
The forces on the rig would be far in excess of a accidental gybe, and they can certainly bring down a rig. At least with the gybe the boat can lurch, yaw, rock, and dissipate some energy.

When the boat is moving, the energy from the sails is transmitted smoothly to forward motion. With a sudden stop, the rig is shock loaded, and forces will be in multiples of what they were when the boat was at speed.

Not to mention the "whip" effect at the end of a long lever, as the top of the mast tried to keep going. Pretty obvious the part of the mast that is missing for the furler is the most stressed in this scenario, and there's only half a mast there, on the wrong side for those forces. It didn't break at the boot, it broke at the weak point above the boom, where the largest cutout is.



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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

I told my wife about this story, as she was with me when we toured a Hylas 70. It's conceivable it was this one, I just don't recall the name. I do recall it was named.

Her first reaction was "see what they want for it". She's great isn't she!
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I told my wife about this story, as she was with me when we toured a Hylas 70. It's conceivable it was this one, I just don't recall the name. I do recall it was named.

Her first reaction was "see what they want for it". She's great isn't she!
If you saw it in Annapolis a couple of years ago, it would have been the same boat... Probably shown in Newport, as well...

Funny thing before the Caribbean 1500 that year, apparently the organizers were giving the owner a fair amount of grief, nitpicking about certain items for the Safety Inspection... It was the first year after Steve Black had sold the 1500 to the Brits, apparently they didn't recognize certain American items on the boat (which was undoubtedly one of the best equipped in the entire fleet), and word was the owner was pretty annoyed, he was like "are you guys freakin' KIDDING me?"

If someone was looking for a 70' marina queen, that boat could be a steal... However, despite the fact that Hylas obviously built a VERY tough boat, I have to believe the overall integrity of that boat may have been significantly compromised... I would be very surprised if much of the joinery has not been deranged, doors no longer making a perfect fit, and so on... Not so sure it would be a boat I'd want to find myself on, while being pressed hard midway to Bermuda in November, for example....

Then again, I'm way too much of a wimp to want to sail something that big offshore to begin with... :-)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 08-12-2013 at 08:55 PM.
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

I'm sure you're right about joinery, etc. I'm not under any illusion that she was very serious. Just seeing the door crack open felt pretty good.

I suspect Archangel is going to find herself with a salvage title by the time they're done. If they really do a stem to stern re-fit and put her back to new, she would still have some discount in value for the salvage. I wonder how the insurance company is going to see it. There can't be more than a couple of those even made, limiting its resale value, so I bet it could quickly become a total loss.

Still that's just creepy how the mast split at the bottom of the furler. I wouldn't sail her across the Bay until I knew that couldn't happen again.
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post

Still that's just creepy how the mast split at the bottom of the furler. I wouldn't sail her across the Bay until I knew that couldn't happen again.
Yes, as I said early on, I suspect the boys at GMT are not pleased about this one at all :-)

Several lives are likely to have been altered by this unfortunate incident... Depending upon the owner's loyalty to, and confidence in, the captain, he may find himself having to return to his former career in 'upper level management' at a Fortune 500 company...

John Harries' experience with having a new mast built by GMT is a sobering, cautionary tale:

Expedition Sailboat Rejects GMT Carbon Fiber Mast



Last edited by JonEisberg; 08-13-2013 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 08-14-2013
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

Most cruising keel boats are designed to have weather helm by, among other thing, placing the mast forward of the keel. So is the Hylas 70. A keel stepped mast is somewhat of a misnomer in the sense that the mast is not on the top (read centerline) of the keel, at best it may be at the very forward end of the keel. In every Hylas I am familiar with, the mast sits on a very beefy SS beam that runs along the bottom of the hull and connects to the keel bolts. So in case of a collision between the keel and a solid surface, the keel is pushed back an rotated backwards, around the keel bolts, with the aft of the keel being pushed into the hull and the forward keel bolts being subjected to tension (not compression). So with the mast sitting at the leading edge of the keel or even further forward, there is no upward compression into the mast.

Also, when a carbon fiber tube is compressed above its limits, the crushing motion splinters the carbon. Looking at the picture of the mast stub, there is too little splintering to indicate excessive compression.

I believe that once the boat hit the granite wall and came to an abrupt and almost immediate stop, the momentum of the mast overloaded the back stay(s). Speaking of back stays, most Hylas have split back stays about half way up, where they combine into a single stay, which is probably the one that failed.

Just my two cents..
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by Eolienne View Post
Most cruising keel boats are designed to have weather helm by, among other thing, placing the mast forward of the keel. So is the Hylas 70. A keel stepped mast is somewhat of a misnomer in the sense that the mast is not on the top (read centerline) of the keel, at best it may be at the very forward end of the keel. In every Hylas I am familiar with, the mast sits on a very beefy SS beam that runs along the bottom of the hull and connects to the keel bolts. So in case of a collision between the keel and a solid surface, the keel is pushed back an rotated backwards, around the keel bolts, with the aft of the keel being pushed into the hull and the forward keel bolts being subjected to tension (not compression). So with the mast sitting at the leading edge of the keel or even further forward, there is no upward compression into the mast.

Also, when a carbon fiber tube is compressed above its limits, the crushing motion splinters the carbon. Looking at the picture of the mast stub, there is too little splintering to indicate excessive compression.

I believe that once the boat hit the granite wall and came to an abrupt and almost immediate stop, the momentum of the mast overloaded the back stay(s). Speaking of back stays, most Hylas have split back stays about half way up, where they combine into a single stay, which is probably the one that failed.

Just my two cents..
The geometry of the keel occured to me after saying I thought it was upwards forces from the keel.

However I won't accept that the sudden stop did this by itself. Consider that the "Sudden stop" forces are on everything in and on the boat - people, stanchions, cup holders, cabinets - those things didn't fail. The boat was going fast but not that fast and the keel is hard but I guarantee it flexed and dented and absorbed some of the impact.

Also there's a reason why this event is notable - groundings often result in a sudden stop but don't often result in the rig coming down. So on it's face, it's just not a good explanation.

The mast doesn't weigh much and the backstay is designed to oppose this force and has a good angle to do it (unlike the shrouds which are at a very steep angles). Stanchions had the same sudden stop forces but needless to say, they didn't topple over.

That said, if we were to consider this further it is the case that the weight of the boom would have pressed into the mast right at the point it failed.

Also if we consider the forces you mention on the keel it's possible that the mast step flexed down on impact before snapping back up as the boat grounded.
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
I can imagine the helmsman looking at the goosneck-mast area and seeing it cracking under stress, maybe hearing it snap. In the few seconds that follow, being in the wrong place at the wrong time (as Murphy's Law would dictate), steering the boat would be forgotten. Perhaps heading up and trying to relieve pressure could have sent them into the rocks. I'm just saying until we hear from those on board, we really don't know what happened. When an experienced crew runs a zillion dollar rig onto the rocks on a clear day I think it's probably fair to give them some benefit of doubt. There just aren't that many experienced sailboat captains capable of such a monumental blunder. Maybe one of the charter guests had a distracting bikini...or none at all:-) Even Kirk would have been distracted by that.
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eolienne View Post
Most cruising keel boats are designed to have weather helm by, among other thing, placing the mast forward of the keel. So is the Hylas 70. A keel stepped mast is somewhat of a misnomer in the sense that the mast is not on the top (read centerline) of the keel, at best it may be at the very forward end of the keel. In every Hylas I am familiar with, the mast sits on a very beefy SS beam that runs along the bottom of the hull and connects to the keel bolts. So in case of a collision between the keel and a solid surface, the keel is pushed back an rotated backwards, around the keel bolts, with the aft of the keel being pushed into the hull and the forward keel bolts being subjected to tension (not compression). So with the mast sitting at the leading edge of the keel or even further forward, there is no upward compression into the mast.

Also, when a carbon fiber tube is compressed above its limits, the crushing motion splinters the carbon. Looking at the picture of the mast stub, there is too little splintering to indicate excessive compression.

I believe that once the boat hit the granite wall and came to an abrupt and almost immediate stop, the momentum of the mast overloaded the back stay(s). Speaking of back stays, most Hylas have split back stays about half way up, where they combine into a single stay, which is probably the one that failed.

Just my two cents..
That's a very interesting point that I hadn't really considered... One of the reasons I changed from the original 'shark fin' keel on my boat, was the extreme leverage moment that would be created during a hard grounding, the simultaneous downwards force on the leading edge, and the upwards force at the trailing edge...

So, perhaps indeed instead of a compressive force being placed on the mast, the hull was deformed sufficiently upon impact - it wouldn't take much, after all - that a sudden slackening of the standing rigging occurred, sufficient to weaken the shrouds' support of the mast?

Or, perhaps some combination of the extreme forces of slackening and compression in rapid succession? The few instances of a hard grounding that I've either experienced, or witnessed, seem to have involved such a combination... Initially, the forward momentum stopped abruptly, accompanied by a degree of lifting of the stern as the hull 'rotates' somewhat around the point of impact... This 'lifting' can even be assisted to some degree, by the boat's quarter wave continuing to move forward beneath the boat as it's stopped, allowing the boat to in effect 'bounce' over the initial obstruction... Then, there can be a secondary impact, the force of which would have a more vertical component, which might still exert a considerable compressive force on the rig...

Impossible to know given how little we know, of course... But my hunch would be that the rig failure may not have been simultaneous with the moment of initial impact, but rather shortly afterwards, during a second or third "bounce" off the ledge...


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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post
A distracting bikini designed for Maine weather....

Fur not flannel.


Is that a camel toe? Now, that is distracting!
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