70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay... - Page 9 - SailNet Community

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  #81  
Old 08-14-2013
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

[quote=JonEisberg;1073908]That's a very interesting point that I hadn't really considered... One of the reasons I changed from the original 'shark fin' keel on my boat, was the extreme leverage moment that would be created during a hard grounding, the simultaneous downwards force on the leading edge, and the upwards force at the trailing edge...

So, perhaps indeed instead of a compressive force being placed on the mast, the hull was deformed sufficiently upon impact - it wouldn't take much, after all - that a sudden slackening of the standing rigging occurred, sufficient to weaken the shrouds' support of the mast?

Or, perhaps some combination of the extreme forces of slackening and compression in rapid succession? The few instances of a hard grounding that I've either experienced, or witnessed, seem to have involved such a combination... Initially, the forward momentum stopped abruptly, accompanied by a degree of lifting of the stern as the hull 'rotates' somewhat around the point of impact... This 'lifting' can even be assisted to some degree, by the boat's quarter wave continuing to move forward beneath the boat as it's stopped, allowing the boat to in effect 'bounce' over the initial obstruction... Then, there can be a secondary impact, the force of which would have a more vertical component, which might still exert a considerable compressive force on the rig...

Impossible to know given how little we know, of course... But my hunch would be that the rig failure may not have been simultaneous with the moment of initial impact, but rather shortly afterwards, during a second or third "bounce" off the ledge...

-------------------------

Let me just first say that anything is total conjecture since we have nothing to go by but a few grainy pictures. But just based on the little we know, it would seem that the whipping action of the mast at or shortly after impact provoked the failure of the backstay(s) which lead to a fairly clean break of the mast. Now it is also fair to say that the backstay failure is not normal, it should have been able to withstand that shock.

Since it is considered a "marine casualty" by the USCG, a very thorough report will be coming forth in a couple of month
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  #82  
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eolienne View Post
But just based on the little we know, it would seem that the whipping action of the mast at or shortly after impact provoked the failure of the backstay(s) which lead to a fairly clean break of the mast. Now it is also fair to say that the backstay failure is not normal, it should have been able to withstand that shock.
I'm on the same boat as this thought.
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  #83  
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by poopdeckpappy View Post
I'm on the same boat as this thought.
What's meant by whipping action?

When the keel impacts, the whole boat will rock forward and the mast will swing forward both because the entire hull will swing (the stern will rise up) and because the backstay will stretch. It will then swing back as the hull settles and as the backstay pulls in (transferring some load to the forestay)

If this is what you mean by whipping this doesn't add to the forces - it decreases them because the mast comes to a stop over a larger distance. In terms of the magnitude of the forces involved this swinging motion is preferable to a complete halt (although swinging does add repetition).

If by whipping you mean flexing of the hull and the mast step then I'm with you (it may have flexed down then up on impact). I think the cause has to be at the step either directly, or indirectly (by slackening then tightening the stays and allowing the mast to flex in-between).
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  #84  
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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What's meant by whipping action?
You know, like whiplash, ya got this mass of energy moving forward @ 7kts and you got several thousand pounds of pressure in the sail, once that boat hits that brick wall, that mast with energy in the sails and everything else except the hull and deck is going to continue moving forward @ 7kts for a split second, that put added stress on the backstays, and releases stress on the forestay, the mast then ( seeking a natural position ) springs aft unloading the backstays and loading the forestay, this happens over and over a half dozen times in a blink of a eye, stressing both stays until the weakest one lets lose and down come Raymarine, gradle and all.
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  #85  
Old 08-15-2013
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by krisscross View Post
Is that a camel toe? Now, that is distracting!
Must be a mink toe?
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  #86  
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by poopdeckpappy View Post
You know, like whiplash, ya got this mass of energy moving forward @ 7kts and you got several thousand pounds of pressure in the sail, once that boat hits that brick wall, that mast with energy in the sails and everything else except the hull and deck is going to continue moving forward @ 7kts for a split second, that put added stress on the backstays, and releases stress on the forestay, the mast then ( seeking a natural position ) springs aft unloading the backstays and loading the forestay, this happens over and over a half dozen times in a blink of a eye, stressing both stays until the weakest one lets lose and down come Raymarine, gradle and all.
Ok and that's exactly what I described in the first two paragraphs you didn't quote (and I don't disagree on the mechanics) and what I'm trying to suggest is not a possible primary cause for a couple different reasons.

Again, the fact that the hull and deck stop immediately (by comparison) while the rig "swings" DOES NOT indicate increased forces on the rig - it means the forces are reduced by comparison because the rig slows over a larger distance.

How many other things on the boat do you think broke because of the forces of the sudden halt? Stanchions? Rails? - I think none, and certainly not the rig, ESPECIALLY when you consider that it had a larger distance over which to stop because of the swinging on impact.

On the other hand when you consider the location of the mast on top of the forward keel bolts (according to one poster) you can see that there is a whole other dimension to the forces on that mast which have nothing to do with those involved in bringing it to a halt.
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Last edited by asdf38; 08-15-2013 at 10:10 AM.
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by TomMaine View Post
Having sailed with a growing family aboard for decades, I wonder about the crew/passenger dynamics aboard during an accident like this.

My first thought was the captain has one crew, the cook. They've just left Camden, likely stowing provisions, stowing lines and generally turning over what is a high scale floating B&B for 6 guests, into the cocktail-dinner hour. He may have the anchorage ahead in mind, dinghy to shore, all the while entertaining the 6 passengers who are no doubt in the cockpit on the beautiful afternoon. He's also the lone pilot.

On the other hand, I watched a large schooner sail into and onto their anchor in pulpit harbor the other night. They slid up between two anchored boats under full sail. Like a war scene, they crew snapped crackling jibs to the deck on the one lone command from the skipper.

All the while on that schooner, all the paying passengers were sitting stock still on the cabin between the captain at the helm and the crew forward. It looked like the "sit down and shut up" rule aboard was being enforced.

I would guess there are few rules with a high end charter. I imagine it could be very stressful for the captain.
Distracted crew is one of the leading factors in airplane crashes. Most infamously Eastern Flight 401 from NY to Miami in 1972. A burnt out lightbulb distracted the flight crew of this plane to the extent that the highly experienced pilots flew a brand spanking new airplane into the ground. If you had told anyone that, that was possible you would be met with a firm "No way!" The truth is, little distractions can have big consequences.

That crash led to the "Ghosts of Flight 401" stories. Fascinating in their own right, but subject for another thread.
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  #88  
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

My own thoughts on this boat on the rocks? Wow, that's gonna leave a mark!!!! They should have kept the boat in Florida!

I go with the distracted skipper. There is no other explanation for this crash. The skipper was highly experienced and very familiar with the area. For whatever reason he got behind the boat. Regardless of vehicle, when the driver's head isn't in the same place as the that vehicle, bad things happen. And, seeing this beautiful boat on the rocks shows me, that no one is immune.
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
The skipper was highly experienced and very familiar with the area.
One obviously doesn't get to be a charter captain on a 70' Hylas by accident, and I have no doubt this man was a VERY competent sailor. When I first read this story, my first reaction was along the lines of "There, but for the grace of...", knowing full well I've likely made dumber moves in the past, could possibly make an even dumber one tomorrow, and have simply had the good fortune that the results of my miscues haven't remotely as calamitous as this one, or as public...

There has been a veritable explosion over the past 15 years or so in the numbers of yachts like ARCHANGEL now in charter service, and at least prior to '08, the supply of qualified crew was barely able to meet the demand, hence the high percentage of positions being filled by Australians, South Africans, and so on... Compared to many lifelong professional mariners filling such positions in the charter industry today, however, perhaps "Highly experienced and very familiar with the area" might be somewhat 'relative' terms, in this particular instance...

Quote:

_____, now in his early fifties, came to the yachting industry following a 25 year career in upper level management positions for several Fortune 500 companies around the US. He has a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Management.

Having decided to pursue sailing as a vocation, Jim earned a USCG Master 100 Ton License and has held the position of captain in every job from the beginning of his yachting career. He has four year’s experience with term charters on sailboats from 53 to 70 feet in length, as well as skippering day charter yachts, both sail and power, in St.Thomas. Most of his sailing has been done in the Caribbean and in New England waters – perfect experience for a charter captain.

_____ enjoys motorcycling, football, baseball and traveling. A genial host, he is thoroughly dedicated to his new profession and “will make every effort possible to ensure guests’ total enjoyment of their charter on Archangel.”

Last edited by JonEisberg; 08-15-2013 at 01:15 PM.
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  #90  
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Re: 70' Hylas grounded, dismasted in Penobscot Bay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eolienne View Post

Let me just first say that anything is total conjecture since we have nothing to go by but a few grainy pictures. But just based on the little we know, it would seem that the whipping action of the mast at or shortly after impact provoked the failure of the backstay(s) which lead to a fairly clean break of the mast. Now it is also fair to say that the backstay failure is not normal, it should have been able to withstand that shock.

Since it is considered a "marine casualty" by the USCG, a very thorough report will be coming forth in a couple of month
No doubt the CG investigation will attempt to get at the root cause of the grounding, primarily centered around the navigational/piloting error that placed ARCHANGEL on top of that ledge... Not so sure how much of the focus will be on what caused the rig to come down, however...

Interestingly, GMT has responded to the discussion over on the Panbo blog... (emphasis mine)

Quote:

As to the Hylas 70 grounding, it is far too early for anyone to form an educated opinion on why the rig came down. The vessel did sustain some damage internally, and the loads associated with a grounding like this are enormous.

- See more at: Panbo: The Marine Electronics Hub: Summer bummer, please don't blame charts or electronics
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