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  #41  
Old 08-10-2013
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Re: Vanishing Seamanship

There is always going to be the problem with boats (and airplanes) of the person who finances are much more developed than their piloting skills.

You can buy as fancy or big a boat as you want, but you still have to get experience the way everybody else gets it, and at the same pace.
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  #42  
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Re: Vanishing Seamanship

Good thread, I've been sailing for more than 40 years, and a pilot for only 2. I'm a VERY conservative (wimpy) pilot working on an instrument rating. I launch into fog and "reasonable" heavy weather without a second thought in the sailboat.

I believe in escalating gradually the situations you put yourself in based on increasing experience.


I think seamanship is knowing what you don't know, and acting appropriately.

The people that scare me don't know what they don't know.
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  #43  
Old 08-10-2013
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Re: Vanishing Seamanship

Quote:
Originally Posted by capecodda View Post
a pilot ....
I believe in escalating gradually.
Very useful for a pilot. Unless there is a mountain in front of you
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  #44  
Old 08-10-2013
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Re: Vanishing Seamanship

I'm not sure the losses really are becoming more common. Ships have always been lost at sea. And probably less so now with the additional navigation aids than in the Age of Sail. But when one is lost, we're far more likely to hear about it and discuss it.

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  #45  
Old 08-10-2013
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Re: Vanishing Seamanship

My personal belief is that with modern 'electronic' navigation there are many 'errors of resolution' ... or improper 'scale up'/magnification of the base charting from which the e-charts are made, especially charting that is derived from old lead-line soundings, etc.

In the paper chart days, skippers would pass by most 'danger zones' at considerable margin of safety distances because they knew that the old charts simply were not that accurate. With todays e-Nav much of the base data is still derived from lead-line data, especially in areas not frequented by the 'large commercial boats'; and still may include the relative inaccuracy of lead line soundings, etc., which when originally surveyed the 'expected' inaccuracies ('tolerance ranges' of measurement) defined the 'scale' of the charting. With e-Nav its really easy to 'magnify' at a scale that is much much different (and entirely inappropriate) than the original scale and the 'resolution enhancements' that the modern e-navigator uses can be 'waaaaay off'.
The message here is if youre navigating in areas that were charted/defined/derived by the pre-WWII (and later) survey methods, dont depend on extreme MAGNIFICATION of an e-chart to insure your safety. Another way to put this if the base data was properly accurate for 1:50,000 or 1:75,000 scale charts (NAD1927, etc.), the 'stack up' of intrinsic error due to the eNavigation magnification scale up of the 'intrinsic margin of error' in the 'old data' will leave you very vulnerable when reading the exact same chart MAGNIFIED to 1:5,000 scale (WGS1984). The resolution error comes from scaling up inappropriately to a a higher value of the intrinsic 'margin of error'.

This is the same as 'believing everything that you read in print to be true' ... and with no consideration a 'grains of salt' taken with such readings.

Last edited by RichH; 08-10-2013 at 03:07 PM.
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  #46  
Old 08-10-2013
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Re: Vanishing Seamanship

Rich has it right, cruising full time we see 2-3 boats per year on the reef and when we talk to the people it is often caused by people zooming in and magnifying the errors in the charts and then believing the chart plotter.

The last boat we saw sink had just completed a transatlantic and they attempted a night entry into a bay we would not enter in daylight in a location where the chart plotters are out by at least 50 yds and the coral has been growing for over 50 yrs since that last survey.

Eyeball navigation with wide margins is the only way to go. We have seen errors as great as 500 yds in the chart plotter.

Phil

Phil

Last edited by Yorksailor; 08-10-2013 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 08-10-2013
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Re: Vanishing Seamanship

I don't see thec correlation. On one hand I agree with Jon that for some electronics and has created a false sense of security and people with not enough eperience attempt passages they never would have before. On the other hand that same electronics includes many boats with better radar, AIS, rapid update on charts, GPS coordinates with direct location. I remember when LORAN came out, the old salts railed against it. I think the benefits of he electronics far outweight the distractions when used as ONE of your aids to navigation.

The statistics doe not show an increase ( even if you look at the last couple of years) in incidents or rescues. They in fact show relatively the same numbers. The Internet has helped publicize them more. We all can point to our own personal stories of ineptitude and experiences with others as you have, but that really doesn't mean overall there has been an increase percentage wise. Again the stats show pretty much static.

The most important factor will always been the experience and brain of he sailor to interpret all the data available, and he seamanship skills thy have.

Now to the issue of the first time purchasers buying larger boats. It almost seems like a bit of jealousy or criticism that others do this by some posters here. There's an attitude that since I came up the hard way so therefore you should. I started small and built up from that so that's the right way to go.

To me it doesn't make any difference whether your first car is a Yugo or. Mercedes. The expense nor the size of the car is relevant as to the persons ability to use the car safely. Just because someone starts with. 40+ boat doesn't mean they would be any safer with a 30 footer. It all goes back to the experience and seamanship skill of he individual captain and should not be generalized to a whole class of pople. We all know many idiots or stupids with smaller boats too.

Stupidity does not know size. It also does not necessarily know experience. There is no training stupidity out of a person. We just have to be aware they are out t here.And protect ourselves accordingly.
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  #48  
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Re: Vanishing Seamanship

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Very useful for a pilot. Unless there is a mountain in front of you
yea, good think Cape Cod is pretty flat
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  #49  
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Re: Vanishing Seamanship

I think the seamanship these days is far, far farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr better than any time previously.

Out "here" in the wild blue yonder of the Caribbean its quite rare to see someone who has no idea and a brain to match.

The younger generation is much more aware than the older generation (as a generalisation). None under, say, 55 are using paper charts at all in primary navigation; everyone (under 55) who does not have an AIS sees their value; everyone who I meet who have recently taken up cruising is quite serious about the sailing, learning and skills.

I remember the old days before GPS when I was just a lad on my first few seasons racing off-shore along the Australia East Coast. The Navigator and Skipper never knew where the hell we were. We could never have won a bloody race becasue we couldn't find the bloody finish line.

For those old gits now to tell me that 'seamanship' can fallen into a cluster dump of refuse is patently wrong.

As that map of Hatteras in the earlier post shows there were many more disasters then than now.

Those at sea now 'living the life' who are modern in outlook and equipment should congratulate themselves for being the safest seamen of any age.
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Re: Vanishing Seamanship

I disagree.
The parallel would be ask what a 'modern' pilot would do when all the 'gizmos' fail in the aircraft ... and wasnt that exactly what happened to the Air France flight that nosedived into the Atlantic after it left Brazil? Sorry, give me an experienced 'stick and rudder' pilot for when the gizmos fail .... or are WRONG? Same applies to 'seamanship' ... its an acquired art, not something that only takes 'waiting for a boot-up' routine.
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