Choosing the Perfect Boat - Page 9 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree57Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #81  
Old 08-20-2013
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Philadephia PA
Posts: 14
Thanks: 4
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 0
sailorboy15 is on a distinguished road
Re: Choosing the Perfect Boat

Might I sugest the Pogo 30? It is fast but not as spartan as an ocean race boat. It is a production boat so you have plenty of information about it. It is unique enough to be the choice of someone with big money who might consider a custom built boat
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #82  
Old 08-20-2013
Author in research mode
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 29
Thanks: 40
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
DeeB is on a distinguished road
Re: Choosing the Perfect Boat

Jeff, that's a true mine of info, thank you.

So to summarise quickly, the extra load for such an itinerary on such a boat could end up making the experience uncomfortable. Excellent, as I said before, the person who picks the boat wants to challenge the intending recipient on that journey.
Secondly, they may arrive a little thinner than they left and considerably dirtier. Not a problem either.

I will take some of the other points you have made in consideration when t's time to write (at the time of researching this I am writing another part).

As for the time required to have the boat built and prepped, again that's also something I had already taken into account, just needed good estimations to make it work. A year works fine.

Chris White has replied and will help. He sounds awesome already.

Definitely going with the Explorer 44. All the difficulties that it may imply will only end up feeding the story. Now I need to get I touch with some owners or in any case people who have experience sailing it...
__________________
Dee
Author in research mode
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #83  
Old 08-21-2013
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,445
Thanks: 3
Thanked 64 Times in 47 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
Re: Choosing the Perfect Boat

If you don't mind I would like to suggest a few points which you may be fully aware of. The choice of a boat like the Explorer 44 definitely has plot implications. Since only you know what you are trying to accomplish in this portion of the plot only you will know if this is the message that you want to send.

Within the plot there may be reasons why you might chose this particular boat, or specific motavations embedded in the character of the person who picks the boat which might lead them to select the Explorer 44, but in chosing such a marginally suitable boat, if you wish the story to be believable, you will probably need to write a clear exposition of those motivations into the story.

From the viewpoint of a sailor, simply hearing this particular choice for that particular voyage suggests some mix of three possible impressions:
-A trip like this would 'use up' a boat like the Explorer, so author plans to destroy the boat by the end of the passage.
-The person who chose the boat, either knows nothing about distance voyaging or else sees the boat and the heroine as totally 'disposable'. If that person knew about distance voyaging and cared about either, they would chose a more purpose built vessel.
-The author of the book knows little or nothing about sailing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeB View Post
So to summarise quickly, the extra load for such an itinerary on such a boat could end up making the experience uncomfortable.
Excellent, as I said before, the person who picks the boat wants to challenge the intending recipient on that journey.
Secondly, they may arrive a little thinner than they left and considerably dirtier. Not a problem either.
You need to understand that the mix of starting with extra load but not being able to carry enough to actually make it safely, is not about being uncomfortable, or losing weight (most sailors would toughen up and lose weight on a trip like this), its about about greatly reducing the chance of survival to the point that a skilled and talented sailor would not make this trip except under serious duress.

This falls in a category that reminds me of a quote from a colleague who went through architecture school with me. He quoted an Art Institute of Chicago professor that he had before entering the university as saying, "Only a genius can do great work with bad tools, and a genius wouldn't [chose to work with bad tools]." Its just not believable that a skilled and talented sailor simply would chose this particular boat unless there was unique and compelling reasons to do so. And unless you set up those reasons believably, the sense of authentcity and credibility would be lost.

To explain why I say this, if we start with Ockham's razor on this choice of boat and consider the points in yesterdays's post, a boat like the Explorer 44 starts with a comparatively tiny carrying capacity.

When you start out with that kind of deficit of carrying capacity, there is a Sophie's Choice on how you adapt to that small capacity. If you overload the boat, you also over stress it; thereby reducing its safety margins, shortening its lifespan, and increasing the likelihood of not being able to complete the trip in one piece.

If you decide to beef the boat up to withstand these additional loads, you are adding weight and thereby reducing the already minimal carrying capacity available for consumables, and/or slowing the speed of the trip, resulting in needing more consumables. In other words, this quickly becomes a viscious design loop with one decision compromising the other possible choices.

Even simple decision points embody this kind of lose-lose decision making process. Take sails, conventional dacron is too stretchy to be used for both the light and heavy air sails so you end up carrying more sails than you would with high tech cloth, and dacron weighs more than high tech. The right high tech cloth to get a broad wind range lacks the robustness for a trip like this, and ideally would be replaced at somepoint along the way. If reinforced to make the trip, the sail gets heavier and so increases rigging loads.

If you want to get an authentic sense of what that kind of a survival voyage might be like, I would suggest that you might want to read Alain Gerbault's book, "The Fight of the Firecrest". Gerbault was an adventurer who in the 1920's, completed the third sole circumnavigation ever completed in history. This book describes his trans-Atlantic crossing as he is running out of food and water and the boat is failing.

The other book that I usually suggest to authors who are not life long sailors but who are writing sailing episodes is the book, "Shipkiller' by Justin Scott. While Scott's characters are a bit cartoon like, he absolutely understands sailing and the way that boats behave and that comes through unequivocally in his vivid sailing scenes.

Jeff
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay

Last edited by Jeff_H; 08-21-2013 at 10:11 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #84  
Old 08-21-2013
Capt.aaron's Avatar
KNOT KNOWN
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guanaja, Bay Islands, Honduras
Posts: 1,320
Thanks: 1
Thanked 19 Times in 19 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Capt.aaron is on a distinguished road
Re: Choosing the Perfect Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
If you don't mind I would like to suggest a few points which you may be fully aware of. The choice of a boat like the Explorer 44 definitely has plot implications. Since only you know what you are trying to accomplish in this portion of the plot only you will know if this is the message that you want to send.

Within the plot there may be reasons why you might chose this particular boat, or specific motavations embedded in the character of the person who picks the boat which might lead them to select the Explorer 44, but in chosing such a marginally suitable boat, if you wish the story to be believable, you will probably need to write a clear exposition of those motivations into the story.

From the viewpoint of a sailor, simply hearing this particular choice for that particular voyage suggests some mix of three possible impressions:
-A trip like this would 'use up' a boat like the Explorer, so author plans to destroy the boat by the end of the passage.
-The person who chose the boat, either knows nothing about distance voyaging or else sees the boat and the heroine as totally 'disposable'. If that person knew about distance voyaging and cared about either, they would chose a more purpose built vessel.
-The author of the book knows little or nothing about sailing.



You need to understand that the mix of starting with extra load but not being able to carry enough to actually make it safely, is not about being uncomfortable, or losing weight (most sailors would toughen up and lose weight on a trip like this), its about about greatly reducing the chance of survival to the point that a skilled and talented sailor would not make this trip except under serious duress.

This falls in a category that reminds me of a quote from a colleague who went through architecture school with me. He quoted an Art Institute of Chicago professor that he had before entering the university as saying, "Only a genius can do great work with bad tools, and a genius wouldn't [chose to work with bad tools]." Its just not believable that a skilled and talented sailor simply would chose this particular boat unless there was unique and compelling reasons to do so. And unless you set up those reasons believably, the sense of authentcity and credibility would be lost.

To explain why I say this, if we start with Ockham's razor on this choice of boat and consider the points in yesterdays's post, a boat like the Explorer 44 starts with a comparatively tiny carrying capacity.

When you start out with that kind of deficit of carrying capacity, there is a Sophie's Choice on how you adapt to that small capacity. If you overload the boat, you also over stress it; thereby reducing its safety margins, shortening its lifespan, and increasing the likelihood of not being able to complete the trip in one piece.

If you decide to beef the boat up to withstand these additional loads, you are adding weight and thereby reducing the already minimal carrying capacity available for consumables, and/or slowing the speed of the trip, resulting in needing more consumables. In other words, this quickly becomes a viscious design loop with one decision compromising the other possible choices.

Even simple decision points embody this kind of lose-lose decision making process. Take sails, conventional dacron is too stretchy to be used for both the light and heavy air sails so you end up carrying more sails than you would with high tech cloth, and dacron weighs more than high tech. The right high tech cloth to get a broad wind range lacks the robustness for a trip like this, and ideally would be replaced at somepoint along the way. If reinforced to make the trip, the sail gets heavier and so increases rigging loads.

If you want to get an authentic sense of what that kind of a survival voyage might be like, I would suggest that you might want to read Alain Gerbault's book, "The Fight of the Firecrest". Gerbault was an adventurer who in the 1920's, completed the third sole circumnavigation ever completed in history. This book describes his trans-Atlantic crossing as he is running out of food and water and the boat is failing.

The other book that I usually suggest to authors who are not life long sailors but who are writing sailing episodes is the book, "Shipkiller' by Justin Scott. While Scott's characters are a bit cartoon like, he absolutely understands sailing and the way that boats behave and that comes through unequivocally in his vivid sailing scenes.

Jeff
I'm not buy'n it. Our friend in Homestaed Fl. crossed the Atlanic twice in 5 and 1/2 foot boats. So many epic long voyages have been done in much lesser boats. There is no way, I could'nt do any of the propsed legs of her fictional voyage in an explorer 44. There is just no way. Some dude just rowed across the Atlantic! You are over thinking it. I propose a challange, some one donate an explorer 44 to me so I can do one of the legs.
DeeB likes this.
__________________
" Some are boat wise and some are other wise"

Last edited by Capt.aaron; 08-21-2013 at 12:52 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to Capt.aaron For This Useful Post:
DeeB (08-21-2013)
  #85  
Old 08-21-2013
JimMcGee's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Barnegat Bay, NJ
Posts: 1,286
Thanks: 12
Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 9
JimMcGee is on a distinguished road
Re: Choosing the Perfect Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeB View Post
Jeff, that's a true mine of info, thank you.

So to summarise quickly, the extra load for such an itinerary on such a boat could end up making the experience uncomfortable. Excellent, as I said before, the person who picks the boat wants to challenge the intending recipient on that journey.
Secondly, they may arrive a little thinner than they left and considerably dirtier. Not a problem either.
Sounds like your "wealthy donor" character is a bit of a sadist...
__________________
95 Catalina 30 Island Time

ďIf a man is to be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most" - E.B. White
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #86  
Old 08-21-2013
krisscross's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 1,365
Thanks: 22
Thanked 72 Times in 72 Posts
Rep Power: 2
krisscross is on a distinguished road
Re: Choosing the Perfect Boat

I think Explorer 44 is an excellent choice for a book crossing. Fast, complicated, dangerous in heavy weather, what's not to like in a good story? These trimarans have a lot of storage capacity in their outrigger hulls. But getting to it in heavy weather can be rather risky.
DeeB likes this.
__________________
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
Plato
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to krisscross For This Useful Post:
DeeB (08-21-2013)
  #87  
Old 08-21-2013
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,445
Thanks: 3
Thanked 64 Times in 47 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
Re: Choosing the Perfect Boat

The Atlantic is the easy part. I have no doubt that the Explorer could do the Gibralter to Panama part. Its the long Pacific legs that seem questionable. But more to the point, chosing to this boat for this voyage, just like crossing the Atlantic in a 5 1/2 boat, is a stunt. Unless a the plot of the book makes a case for why the heroine wants to do a stunt, choosing this boat is simply is a non-sequitur.

Maybe this is just me, but when an author stoops to selecting such a questionable design, unless there is some very specific seamless explanation within the plotline that drives the basis for chosing this particular design, I would immediately peg this as an author who did not understand boats, or was picking a boat simply for the drama of it all; both of which puts the author in the spot light and the plot in the wings. To me, choosing a major 'prop' solely for the drama it will add runs counter to my belief about what makes a good book work. In the best books, the reader is immersed in the story and the author's hand is totally invisible.

In this case, by purposely choosing a boat that no experienced sailor would chose for this purpose, the author's presence becomes as obvious as mystery TV series formulaic need to wrap up the crime before the end an hour except the week before sweeps week. If the reader is at all knowldegable of sailing and boats, the book is suddenly relegated to pulp fiction.

As to lots of storage in the outer hulls, its true that there is a lot of volume in the outer hulls, but weight distribution is critical on tri's like these (this is not a Piver after all) and so you can't put much weight out there. Remember with the wide beams on these boats that every pound you put in the leeward hull is a disproportionate amount of stability lost, and roll moment of inertia gained. Never a good thing.

Jeff
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay

Last edited by Jeff_H; 08-21-2013 at 02:14 PM. Reason: spelling and syntax clean up
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to Jeff_H For This Useful Post:
wingNwing (08-21-2013)
  #88  
Old 08-21-2013
manatee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: S.E. Florida
Posts: 865
Thanks: 16
Thanked 64 Times in 54 Posts
Rep Power: 2
manatee is on a distinguished road
Re: Choosing the Perfect Boat

^^^^^ What Jeff_H said ^^^^^

Quote:
Sounds like your "wealthy donor" character is a bit of a sadist...
Unless torturing the heroine is the object of the voyage, it sounds too contrived, like the zillion movies in which someone hears weird noises from the basement and moseys down into the dark at the bottom of the stairs with neither light nor weapon, when anyone with two brain cells to rub together would say, "NO!".

The ocean makes long voyages, especially semicircumnavigations, hard enough without saddling someone with a marginally suitable boat (no disrespect to the 44).
__________________
===========================
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
===========================

"The skipper should be the calmest person on board.
It is good for the morale of those around you. However, if everyone around you is frightened then be aware of the possibility that they know something you donít."

~~Dylan Winter,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #89  
Old 08-21-2013
Capt.aaron's Avatar
KNOT KNOWN
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guanaja, Bay Islands, Honduras
Posts: 1,320
Thanks: 1
Thanked 19 Times in 19 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Capt.aaron is on a distinguished road
Re: Choosing the Perfect Boat

Any time I've been zooming along off shore on a trimaran, I've been nothing but comfy and happy with my speed. Why ya'll are likening it torture, I don't understand. The choppy and bumpy Atlantic has alway's been lees comfy to me than the Long rolling Pacific swells. At times being hove to for day's in my little sloop, caught in a norther seemed like torture and I wonder why I do it to my self when it's happening. In those moments I would welcome the movement of a 44' trimaran. Land luubers think of any ocean crossing in a smallish (under 100 foot) sail boat as a stunt. It's a matter of perspective. It reminds me of my sister, she won't drive it unless it's the latest model with the butt warmer and the computer that talks to her. Long distance off shore sailing in it's self is a challange. To do it in a brand new, beefed up, explorer 44, to me would be a cake walk compared to a lot of my voyages on smaller boats.
DeeB likes this.
__________________
" Some are boat wise and some are other wise"

Last edited by Capt.aaron; 08-21-2013 at 02:56 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to Capt.aaron For This Useful Post:
DeeB (08-21-2013)
  #90  
Old 08-21-2013
johnnyquest37's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 385
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 3
johnnyquest37 is on a distinguished road
Re: Choosing the Perfect Boat

DeeB: With all due respect for the extremely intelligent and immenently knowledgable sailors on this forum, I humbly suggest that the perfect boat for your story is a Gunboat. Fast, elegant, not difficult to sail, great ocean performance, and the boat is sexy enough to be one of your main characters.
__________________
[/B]S/V Wind Orchid
Catalina 350 (hull# 273)
Annapolis, MD

LET'S GET SERIOUS ABOUT REMOVING POLITCAL TAG LINES -- NOW!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to johnnyquest37 For This Useful Post:
DeeB (08-21-2013)
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need help choosing a boat dutch2004 General Discussion (sailing related) 12 12-06-2011 08:35 AM
Choosing the right boat jzlatar Boat Review and Purchase Forum 1 10-08-2003 09:53 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:12 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012