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  #31  
Old 08-26-2013
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Re: Remote helm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex W View Post
Interesting. The current version of Raycontrol on my e7d prevents it from being able to change course or direct the autopilot (you get an error whenever the autopilot dialog would pop up). What version are you using?
That will teach me to try it before I brag about it. I've not used it, just believed the hype.
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  #32  
Old 08-26-2013
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Re: Remote helm

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
quote:
My idea of a perfect pass is to first signal my intention to the slower vessel with a horn signal (one short blast if passing to starboard; two short blasts if to port).
end quote

From colregs inland
c) When in sight of one another in a narrow channel or fairway:
(i) a vessel intending to overtake another shall in compliance with Rule 9(e)(i) indicate her intention by the following signals on her whistle:
− two prolonged blasts followed by one short blast to mean “I intend to overtake you on your starboard side”;
− two prolonged blasts followed by two short blasts to mean “I intend to overtake you on your port side”.
(ii) the vessel about to be overtaken when acting in accordance with Rule 9(e)(i) shall indicate her agreement by the following signal on her whistle:
− one prolonged, one short, one prolonged and one short blast, in that order.

What do most folks in the ditch do?
For the record, the description of the horn signals into my text about overtaking is not mine, but was inserted by Jeremy McGeary at CRUISING WORLD, who edited the piece... I generally use simply one or two "longish" blasts, it often depends upon the horn being used... The horns on many boats don't seem to be up to repeated, prolonged usage, and the mechanical air horns on many larger boats can take an unbelievably long time to recycle, the compressor often running for a minute or more after usage...

It is extremely rare for the slower vessel to acknowledge a horn signal in kind, most folks will simply wave, or begin to slow down/move over in response...

Many people communicate with VHF, but in my view that is generally unnecessary, and often results in a proliferation of needless chatter on 16... And, with all the talking on VHF, I feel horn signals are often far more effective in "waking up" many skippers on slower boats, many of whom never see me coming... Never ceases to amaze, how rarely so many folks on slower boats seem to steal a glance behind them - especially considering doing so habitually is often the best guard against straying from the channel and going aground thru so many stretches of the ICW...

Using a VHF when running a fast boat can be problematic in these overtaking situations for a couple of reasons... First, the names on the transoms of most sailboats are generally very difficult to read from a distance, and are becoming more so each year with the proliferation of dinghies on davits. Chances are, by the time radio contact is established, I'm already on top of the guy... More importantly, running a fast boat in a narrow channel, my hands are already full, I don't have a 3rd hand to be activating a radio mike... Bringing a large yacht from a plane down to idle speed in a narrow channel bordered by shallow water in close proximity to another boat is often no simple trick. One hand for the throttles, the other for the wheel which will usually require a major correction as the boat suddenly settles into full displacement mode, and veers dramatically away from the edge of the channel in an effort to seek deeper water... Tough to manage all that, and be talking on the radio as well - especially when a horn signal can so easily convey one's intentions. Obviously, exceptions can often apply, and sometimes a radio call is definitely warranted...

None of this is rocket science, most ICW rookies come to quickly understand the drill pretty quickly... But it all hinges on the slower boat's willingness to cut their speed, and if they refuse to do so, well, then they're just gonna create problems for themselves...
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  #33  
Old 08-26-2013
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Re: Remote helm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
For the record, the description of the horn signals into my text about overtaking is not mine, but was inserted by Jeremy McGeary at CRUISING WORLD, who edited the piece... I generally use simply one or two "longish" blasts, it often depends upon the horn being used... The horns on many boats don't seem to be up to repeated, prolonged usage, and the mechanical air horns on many larger boats can take an unbelievably long time to recycle, the compressor often running for a minute or more after usage...

It is extremely rare for the slower vessel to acknowledge a horn signal in kind, most folks will simply wave, or begin to slow down/move over in response...

Many people communicate with VHF, but in my view that is generally unnecessary, and often results in a proliferation of needless chatter on 16... And, with all the talking on VHF, I feel horn signals are often far more effective in "waking up" many skippers on slower boats, many of whom never see me coming... Never ceases to amaze, how rarely so many folks on slower boats seem to steal a glance behind them - especially considering doing so habitually is often the best guard against straying from the channel and going aground thru so many stretches of the ICW...

Using a VHF when running a fast boat can be problematic in these overtaking situations for a couple of reasons... First, the names on the transoms of most sailboats are generally very difficult to read from a distance, and are becoming more so each year with the proliferation of dinghies on davits. Chances are, by the time radio contact is established, I'm already on top of the guy... More importantly, running a fast boat in a narrow channel, my hands are already full, I don't have a 3rd hand to be activating a radio mike... Bringing a large yacht from a plane down to idle speed in a narrow channel bordered by shallow water in close proximity to another boat is often no simple trick. One hand for the throttles, the other for the wheel which will usually require a major correction as the boat suddenly settles into full displacement mode, and veers dramatically away from the edge of the channel in an effort to seek deeper water... Tough to manage all that, and be talking on the radio as well - especially when a horn signal can so easily convey one's intentions. Obviously, exceptions can often apply, and sometimes a radio call is definitely warranted...

None of this is rocket science, most ICW rookies come to quickly understand the drill pretty quickly... But it all hinges on the slower boat's willingness to cut their speed, and if they refuse to do so, well, then they're just gonna create problems for themselves...
Wow... So many inland waterways rules ignored or broken in this and your previous posts.

And you truly think your actions are humorous?

Seriously, go take a refresher course.

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  #34  
Old 08-26-2013
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Re: Remote helm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Wow... So many inland waterways rules ignored or broken in this and your previous posts.

And you truly think your actions are humorous?

Seriously, go take a refresher course.
Nah, I don't see my own actions in this event as being particularly "humorous"...

But, the end result of those of some idiot determined to run his Formosa 51 thru the Alligator-Pungo Canal at hull speed using an AP remote from a lawn chair on his foredeck certainly was...

Perhaps you had to be there :-)
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Re: Remote helm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Nah, I don't see my own actions in this event as being particularly "humorous"...

But, the end result of those of some idiot determined to run his Formosa 51 thru the Alligator-Pungo Canal at hull speed using an AP remote from a lawn chair on his foredeck certainly was...

Perhaps you had to be there :-)
He was not breaking any rules.... You were. Go take the refresher course.

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  #36  
Old 08-26-2013
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Re: Remote helm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post

Perhaps you had to be there :-)
Probably so. I appreciate your explanation of the overtaking issues and the specifics of the area. I haven't been there. For the record my 9.5knot overtaking suggestion was a quick and conservative calculation of your hull speed based on length. What I intended to suggest was passing him at hull speed where you wouldn't make much wake. I'm not familiar with "sucking issues" of confined waters, so again maybe I just had to be there.

I still do take issue with your attitude towards him going aground. I know you don't like that he was more casual than you, but it sounds like half of the people you pass aren't cooperative. It sounds like it was the lawn chair that got your goat. The story sounds a little like you cut off a car hogging the fast lane and caused him to crash and are reveling in it. It's still a car crash.

Even though I wasn't there, I bet you "could" have passed him in some other manner without causing as much distress as you did. On the other hand, maybe I'm just sensitive because it was a Formosa you were messing with....

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  #37  
Old 08-26-2013
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Re: Remote helm

Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
He was not breaking any rules.... You were. Go take the refresher course.
Oh, really? Hmmm, perhaps you could use a refresher course, as well :-)

Quote:

In general, any vessel equipped with a VHF marine radiotelephone (whether voluntarily or required to) must maintain a watch on channel 16 (156.800 MHz) whenever the radiotelephone is not being used to communicate.
Then, there is his failure to acknowledge my horn signal in kind:

Quote:

(i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking, the power-driven vessel intending to overtake another power-driven vessel shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c) and take steps to permit safe passing. The power-driven vessel being overtaken, if in agreement, shall sound the same signal and may, if specifically agreed to take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt, she shall sound the danger signal prescribed in Rule 34(d).
Then, there is the matter of "Good Seamanship", and the argument that could be made that this vessel was being operated in a manner dangerously close to being Not Under Command, and the fact her skipper made no effort whatsoever to adhere to the spirit and intent of Rule 8:

Quote:

Rule 8 - Action to Avoid Collision

(a) Any action shall [be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and], if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.
Look, I'm sure some who've read this find my account barely credible... Hell, even after all these years, I still find it hard to believe I came across someone so willing to demonstrate such obstinate stupidity throughout what should be a simple procedure, one that I've repeated thousands of times with other boats... Running that stretch of the ditch on AP is risky enough, though I do it myself all the time with a slow boat... Doing so from the foredeck ratchets up the risk to an unacceptable degree, however. And doing so, when being overtaken by another yacht, well - that's simply off the charts in terms of poor seamanship...

So, in the face of this clown's obstinate refusal to take proper control of his own vessel, and his repeated waving me on to overtake him (I know that wave, have seen it hundreds of times over the years, it says 'Come on by, no need to slow for me, I'll be fine...'), I resorted to passing him as expeditiously as possible, given the circumstances... In a manner that placed our respective boats side by side and at risk of collision for the least amount of time possible, and the one that resulted in throwing him LESS wake - and a wake that should have been far easier for him to manage - than he would have received if I'd passed him slowly, given his refusal to slow from the 8 knots he was making...

And, in this particular case, I think it could be argued that Rule 2 grants me the authority to have made that sort of judgment call:

Quote:

Rule 2 - Responsibility

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
But then again, I suppose I'm just a habitual 'Rule Breaker'... As one who often sails singlehanded, I'm obviously in routine violation of Rule 5 whenever I sail pretty much anywhere in my own little tub... :-)


Last edited by JonEisberg; 08-26-2013 at 02:31 PM.
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  #38  
Old 08-26-2013
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Re: Remote helm

Jon you said

When a powerboat operator has neither the inclination toward courtesy nor the skill to demonstrate it, you can minimize the effect of a rogue wake by turning away from the wake and throwing a hip check with your own boat's quarter by beginning to cut sharply across the wake, then deliberately putting the boat broadside at just the right moment. In most boats of at least moderate displacement, this results in little more than the overtaken boat bobbing up and down, with a minimum degree of rolling.


This is interesting.

So the way I read this is that if someone passes me from astern at high speed throwing a big wake on my port I should steer starboard until the wake hits my quarter then steer port.

Is that right?

If so what if someone passes me at high speed on my port side but from ahead throwing a big wake?
In this case it is the opposite yes?
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  #39  
Old 08-26-2013
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Re: Remote helm

Jon I'm not going to argue with you about this for the very good reason that you have thousands of more hours at the helm than I and are a professional. And frankly it doesn't concern me personally, I hope. IOW I suspect is is unlikely you will ever encounter me on the water acting clownish and you feel it necessary to blow me off the road.

You have your mind made up about this situation and you don't seem to be in a mood to change.
Personally your experience and posting are more valuable to me than being right or wrong on this one incident.

For the rest of us what an education.

Here you have one of our own. A known good guy and fellow sailor. His attitude is that if someone is in his way and acting "clownish" he has the right to blow him off the road at 25 knots and finds it funny if they get grounded. I don't know how he would feel if the guy holed his boat on one of those stumps or got seriously hurt but that was a risk he took with the other guys boat and life too.

Now this is the lesson I got.

Imagine what we look like to Tug captain or better yet to a chinese super container ship captain. This guy may never had even set foot on anything less that 1,000 tons. His boss is bitching that he has to get to the dock to unload and every hour he is late is costing thousands.

I suspect that for some their only care about whether we will slow him down a minute or not and if someone sees him sink us it may cause some annoying paperwork.

Guys and gals you may be on your own out their more than you think.
Any perceived un-seamanship behavior due to inexperience or a touch too much confidence may set someone off.
Not everyone cares about your well being and some people feel justified in teaching you a lesson.


Be careful out there.

I guess it is not too different from land.
Back in the 80's my wife and I rode out 10 speed bikes from West Haven, CT to South Carolina.
In order to get past NYC we had to get across a bridge. I believe it was the Gothels bridge.
You couldn't ride you bike on the bridge but you could call for a transit worker to pick you up on one side and drive you across the bridge.
He let us off on the other side of the bridge. I would have liked for him to take us to an exit but he didn't.
So we in in 10 speeds with heavy saddle bags hugging the shoulder heading for the exit.
A semi came flying by us at speed about six inches from our handlebars blowing us off the road.
Apparently he felt compelled to teach us a lesson about where we should and should not bike.
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Last edited by davidpm; 08-26-2013 at 09:48 PM.
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  #40  
Old 08-26-2013
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Re: Remote helm

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...Over 25 years ago, I learned a very valuable lesson from an incident that could have easily ended my budding career in the delivery trade. Namely, autopilots can wig out at any time, and appear to have a greater likelihood to do so in close proximity to other vessels, or large structures such as bridges...
It's the remote compass getting thrown off by the steel in bridge or other boat.

One time I was organizing a storage area where the magnetic sensor is mounted. The person at the helm yelled that the AP was going haywire. It turned out that I put some wrenches to close to the AP's remote compass.

Regards,
Brad
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Last edited by Bene505; 08-27-2013 at 09:22 AM.
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