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  #31  
Old 09-08-2013
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Re: series drogue or para anchor?

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
The issue with a large number of square feet being exposed on a stern is not so much that it may have more buoyancy than a double-ender or a traditional overhung boat. It's that when a BREAKING wave crest smashes into all that surface area, it will displace it somewhere. Either the boat will move sideways and broach or move forward down the face of the wave and possibly cause a pitchpole as the bow, with less buoyancy, digs in and buries. There's a good reason double-enders have long been the choice of offshore sailors.
There's good reason double-enders USED TO BE the choice of SOME offshore sailors...

Amended, to reflect contemporary reality :-)

Evans Starzinger, Webb Chiles, Jimmy Cornell, and John Neal have about a dozen circumnavigations, and probably close to a million bluewater miles, between them.... And, as best as I can tell, not so much as a single one of them in double-ended boats...











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Re: series drogue or para anchor?

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Damn, that sounds like something that would probably sink my boat :-)

Definitely one of the issues with gear like a series drogue, finding the room to stow what can be a bulky item that one might so rarely - if ever - wind up using...

I made mine using 3/8" and 5/16" sections of Amsteel, makes for a very lightweight and compact bundle... Rather pricey, however :-)
Jon, can you get a pic of that some time? I'm going to be getting a JSD and would like to see a better option than the traditional line. I love the idea of something that has similar strength but is much more compact.
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  #33  
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Re: series drogue or para anchor?

True canoe stern hulls are an older idea but there are still plenty of them around. They used to be and still are the choice of many long distance sailors regardless of what a few "name brand" sailors may use. They have advantages and disadvantages. Actually, the boats in your pictures are very close to being double-ended as are boats with overhangs. The main advantage is to allow a following sea to slip by in the same manner the bow lets water slip by with minimum alteration in direction. The stern buoyancy theory is probably true to a point but once breaking waves get high enough to hit all that glass, the stern will get pushed around more than in a boat with less exposed surface area. That doesn't seem like rocket science.
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Re: series drogue or para anchor?

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Actually, the boats in your pictures are very close to being double-ended as are boats with overhangs.
Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm not sure many people would consider Cornell's Ovni, or Beth & Evans' Samoa, as "close to being double-ended"... :-)








Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
True canoe stern hulls are an older idea but there are still plenty of them around. They used to be and still are the choice of many long distance sailors regardless of what a few "name brand" sailors may use. They have advantages and disadvantages. Actually, the boats in your pictures are very close to being double-ended as are boats with overhangs. The main advantage is to allow a following sea to slip by in the same manner the bow lets water slip by with minimum alteration in direction. The stern buoyancy theory is probably true to a point but once breaking waves get high enough to hit all that glass, the stern will get pushed around more than in a boat with less exposed surface area. That doesn't seem like rocket science.
You're right, of course, there are still some voyagers out there sailing double-ended boats (Eric Forsyth is among the most prominent that comes to my mind), but I think their numbers continue to diminish... With the demise of Valiant, I can't think of a production builder that continues to produce double-enders. (Pacific Seacraft technically might qualify, if they were actually still building boats in any numbers)...

I have a bit of experience with double-ended/canoe stern boats, one of my all-time favorites was the Alden 38 SEAFLOWER which I ran between Maine and Florida numerous times:




But much of my time offshore has been with the Valiant 42, an absolutely wonderful all-around boat...However, when confronted with a breaking sea of a height sufficient to break against a transom, those boats are just as vulnerable to being pooped as any comparably sized yacht with a reverse transom... And, one of the primary purposes of a drogue, in addition to limiting speed, is to inhibit the stern from being "pushed around" by a potential wave strike...


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Re: series drogue or para anchor?

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that if a hull is viewed from the bottom, it seems like most of the boats that have proven records of long distance voyaging have a pointed entry both bow and stern even though not identified as double-enders. Even the narrow CCA era overhung boats like my old A35 "split" the water dissipating the wave energy on both ends. It's definitely true that there are fewer and fewer true double-enders around but it's usually apparent that they actually voyage somewhere rather than sitting tied to docks with a canvas tent over the cockpit.
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Re: series drogue or para anchor?

One reason that we may not be seeing many double-enders and vessels of a similar ilk is that very few sailors actually go off-shore. I read an interview with a Hunter rep who put the number at 3%. "The demands of the market" would definitely favour lighter, roomier boats with large easily accessible cockpits.
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Re: series drogue or para anchor?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
One reason that we may not be seeing many double-enders and vessels of a similar ilk is that very few sailors actually go off-shore. I read an interview with a Hunter rep who put the number at 3%. "The demands of the market" would definitely favour lighter, roomier boats with large easily accessible cockpits.
Bingo. What continually confounds me though are the guys that think this demand is "misguided". In other words, that the market should want "offshore" boats (i.e. - "safer") despite the fact that that's not the intended use.
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Re: series drogue or para anchor?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
One reason that we may not be seeing many double-enders and vessels of a similar ilk is that very few sailors actually go off-shore. I read an interview with a Hunter rep who put the number at 3%. "The demands of the market" would definitely favour lighter, roomier boats with large easily accessible cockpits.
That's true, of course, but what I'm referring to is the ever-dwindling percentage of double-enders being sailed by people who actually ARE crossing oceans today... The ARC, for example, attracts well over 200 boats each year, and might be considered illustrative of the sort of boats many people are choosing to sail across an ocean these days... Now, I'm unfamiliar with some of the names or brands on this list, but of the entries listed so far for the 2013 edition of the ARC, not a SINGLE ONE jumps out at me as being a double-ender:

World Cruising Club - ARC Entries

Perhaps we need to start classifying multihulls as "double-enders", in order to get their numbers back up? :-)
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Re: series drogue or para anchor?

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Jon, can you get a pic of that some time? I'm going to be getting a JSD and would like to see a better option than the traditional line. I love the idea of something that has similar strength but is much more compact.
Here you go... As mentioned, it's in 2 sections, the heavier 3/8 section in the bag on the right will just about fit in another bag of similar size to the one on the left... For a bridle, I'll use a pair of 12' Yale Polydyne 5/8" mooring pennants, shackled to chainplates on the stern quarter, as per Don Jordan's recommendation...

One caveat to using Amsteel, or similar... Because the rope is a rather loose and 'slippery' braid, I think you need to do more to keep the knotted cone tapes from the possibility of getting pulled through the rope. I used small fender washers before the knot to (hopefully) prevent that from happening...

It's a fairly painstaking process to assemble one of these, you definitely want to plan it for a time when you've got a couple of good football games to watch, or something... :-) I probably got it down to about 4-5 minutes of time to attach each cone to the rode, and I think I have something right around 120 cones, total...



Last edited by JonEisberg; 09-09-2013 at 12:08 PM.
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Re: series drogue or para anchor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Here you go... As mentioned, it's in 2 sections, the heavier 3/8 section in the bag on the right will just about fit in another bag of similar size to the one on the left... For a bridle, I'll use a pair of 12' Yale Polydyne 5/8" mooring pennants, shackled to chainplates on the stern quarter, as per Don Jordan's recommendation...

One caveat to using Amsteel, or similar... Because the rope is a rather loose and 'slippery' braid, I think you need to do more to keep the knotted cone tapes from the possibility of getting pulled through the rope. I used small fender washers before the knot to (hopefully) prevent that from happening...

It's a fairly painstaking process to assemble one of these, you definitely want to plan it for a time when you've got a couple of good football games to watch, or something... :-) I probably got it down to about 4-5 minutes of time to attach each cone to the rode, and I think I have something right around 120 cones, total...


Yes, especially in making the cones from scratch. I have the plans and template to make one but the mere thought of the tedium of cutting and sewing up all those cones has so far headed off the project:-) The Amsteel idea is great. By the way, I did make up those cleat-filler blocks you suggested a while back. Managed to have one wash overboard when I forgot it on deck but they are easy to replace and work well to stop line from getting caught on the midship cleats.
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