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  #41  
Old 09-26-2013
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Re: Florida Anchoring and Mooring pilot program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
The mooring effort is an attempt to remedy an extremely difficult situation because there are so many different objectives at play. At least they are making an attempt to make these mooring areas accessible to everyone. If the fields like Marathon are managed for the long run and the equipment is placed on a maintenance schedule and depreciation and reinvestment is calculated in the mooring fees, there is absolutely no reason that the facilities should deteriorate. Granted, government is not always good at seeing ahead very far. They should also not become any more expensive than basic inflation dictates with sound management. Florida seems to do a pretty good job, compared to other states, at managing the cost of government. People working for government do not seem to be overpaid as can be the case in other states (like NY where I live). Just check the condition of pension funds to get a picture of relative incompetence:-)

The only complaints from boaters seem to have come as a result of over zealousness on the part of a very small number of members of LE.
That's not my only complaint. My complaint is that the remedy punishes the guilty and not guilty, with equal enthusiasm, making me highly cynical of the honesty of the stated aims of the program.
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  #42  
Old 09-26-2013
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Re: Florida Anchoring and Mooring pilot program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night0wl View Post
I wouldn't say its a shining example...yet. Its so easy to overlook the fact that the program and facilities are *NEW* right now. What happens in 10-15 years when the facilities are in need of renovation and the employees working there are getting union scale wages with platinum benefits.

The long term implication is that WE WILL PAY. Mooring fees will rise dramatically as soon as the pump out boat needs to be replaced and the showers are old/decrepit. This happens over and over in so called model communities. Then the first renovation cycle comes due and the place just falls apart as the city and residents are unwilling to keep the facilities modern. So they soak us with "use fees"

The worst part is that the state and city planners (*KNOW*) this. They're beholden to the waterfront property owners that dont want you cheapo sailors in their waterfront view. So in the end...say 10 years from now...a decrepit expensive empty mooring field is to their advantage. They can say "they offer facilities" to cruisers...but no one is going to use them.

Public loses access to waterfront and the big fish rich guy win again.
No one knows what will happen in the future. But I can tell you what they had in the past didn't work. I will say, though, that Florida, Colorado, and Washington KNOW where their money comes from - it comes from tourism.

For example, there is no doubt in your mind when you cross the state line between Florida and Alabama. The rest areas in FLorida are nice, patrolled, and kept up. The roads are generally nicer. The grounds in most of the cities are nicer. I am not picking on Alabama. Texas and LA could learn a few things too. But Florida knows where its money comes from and they do a great job of keeping these things nice and attractive.

I would like (LIKE) to believe that they will do the same with the waterways. I would like to believe they will do the same with the mooring fields. I will tell you this, there are some extraordinary waterfront parks on the west coast of Florida. On Emerson Point, there is a floating dinghy dock on the park with access to miles of trails. You can beach on Desoto Point and and walk through a great history lesson of what a murderer Desoto was. What about Pelican Bay where you can anchor (for free) and use the dinghy dock for a small charge, and walk the trails and over tot he gulf for a swim?

What I think (in my opinion) is that the people who most complain about the mooring fields would be the people who will complain even louder when there isn't a pumpout boat that comes to pump them out for free, or they cannot get rid of their trash, or they cannot get water, showers, toilets, etc. Suddenly that $15 mooring ball isn't so expensive and looks like a great deal. Because you want to know what marinas are running down here???

Marathon - Key West

$2.50-$4.50/ft measured overall length from anchor to davits per night.

$21.50/ft measured same for a month in Marathon.

$34.50/ft in Key West Bight (the cheapest... Galleon is even more) PLUS electricity at $50+ dollars a week. A 40 foot boat, measure overall, can easily be looking at $1700/month!!!

Fort Myers Beach

Snook Bight is $14.50/ft, plus electricity, plus $35 for pool/showers, plus 50 for first liveaboard and $25 for everyone after that...

We stayed at Salty Sams and they charged us $25 for a pumpout. Twenty-five for one pumpout and we were paying for slippage! And it is the same price as SNook Bight.

The Harborage in St Pete will easily run you 7-800 for a 40' boat... easily.

And yet, we are complaining about $15 for a mooring ball????? Really? $300 for the month and EVERYTHING is included! You cannot even get a hotel down here for a couple of days for that. You sure aren't going to get a marina for that. Yet, you pull these mooring balls, and in addition to the vagrants moving back in like roaches at a Taco Bell, all those services will likely disappear. THat was the way it used to be, remember?? Turds floating down the canals? Bathing naked in their cockpits. People walking through people's lawns and stealing their water. Trash thrown overboard or in people lawn.

Not to mention, what incentives do the marinas have to keep their already ridiculous prices from going higher? Where else are you going to get water? Get pumped out? Get rid of your trash? Park your dinghy? It doesn't (legally) work. Now for those who dump illegally and really couldn't care about any of these laws, well, I guess damn the torpedoes and sink those mooring balls. Me, I like knowing that I am a day's sail from all of these amenities, which are cheap, safe, and legal. I will do my time and I bug out and go anchor somewhere else that is prettier and free.

Get rid of this stuff? No thank you. Like I said, I remember what it used to be like.

Brian
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  #43  
Old 09-26-2013
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Re: Florida Anchoring and Mooring pilot program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
The mooring effort is an attempt to remedy an extremely difficult situation because there are so many different objectives at play. At least they are making an attempt to make these mooring areas accessible to everyone. If the fields like Marathon are managed for the long run and the equipment is placed on a maintenance schedule and depreciation and reinvestment is calculated in the mooring fees, there is absolutely no reason that the facilities should deteriorate. Granted, government is not always good at seeing ahead very far. They should also not become any more expensive than basic inflation dictates with sound management. Florida seems to do a pretty good job, compared to other states, at managing the cost of government. People working for government do not seem to be overpaid as can be the case in other states (like NY where I live). Just check the condition of pension funds to get a picture of relative incompetence:-)

The only complaints from boaters seem to have come as a result of over zealousness on the part of a very small number of members of LE.

As far as the development is concerned, I think all those condos are as ugly as all get-out but that's free enterprise at work. (Who the heck buys all those condos?) Southern Florida along 95 looks like a 300 mile long strip mall. UUUUUUUUUUUUUgly! But there are also a significant number of miles of undeveloped ocean shoreline that have been reserved for public use.
Right on.

Brian
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  #44  
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Re: Florida Anchoring and Mooring pilot program.

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Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
That's not my only complaint. My complaint is that the remedy punishes the guilty and not guilty, with equal enthusiasm, making me highly cynical of the honesty of the stated aims of the program.
Please define that with specifics.

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  #45  
Old 09-26-2013
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Re: Florida Anchoring and Mooring pilot program.

cruise dad- Each of your points are false,read on.
in Annapolis the have a pump boat, if you are ANCHORED there you are required to pumpout ,they monitor each boat that comes and goes.
so much for that argument.
As for fresh water, I have a Our Katydin RO system, so I make my own.
so much for that argument.
I have 2 heads and a shower.
So much for that argument.
I have a Splendide 2000S washer/dryer.
so much for that argument.
as for dingy access, are you familiar with the phrase PUBLIC ACCESS, or Boat Ramp?
again, so much for that argument.
Bike parking, I don't park,I ride it and take it back to the boat on my sailing /rowing dingy.
so much for that argument.
You will also note that these systems aboard my boat are not FREE as you point out (in a feeble attempt to portray me as a freeloader)
so,keep obfuscating the discussion, I can refute every point you throw up.I've heard them ALL before, they are still false flags.
you see Dave, I have no problem with casual hobby boaters who ill prepare there craft so they can visit places.
I do take issue with those same people when they try to tell me what I cannot do.
this is not just a passing interest, it's my lifestyle, I plan on living it until I'm dead.
most do not.
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  #46  
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Re: Florida Anchoring and Mooring pilot program.

In the end, regulations and laws always boil down to who is willing to fork over the most money to legislatures and city councils to get what they want.

In that war, boaters are never going to win.
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  #47  
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Re: Florida Anchoring and Mooring pilot program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
Main thing is to get them out of sight, though, right?
No, the main thing is to make it a good environment and friendly for boaters and home owners alike. Boaters benefit out of them too... just not the vagrants.

Remember, many (if not most) of these waterfront homeowners have boats too... most of them larger and vastly more expensive than yours and mine.

Ever been to Naples????? Marco? Heck, just go up and down the canals in Marathon and you are in for an eye opener. Insane money.

Brian
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  #48  
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Re: Florida Anchoring and Mooring pilot program.

when you sacrifice freedom for convenience, you will soon find you have neither.
you know who said that?
I did,just now. pay attention.
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  #49  
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Re: Florida Anchoring and Mooring pilot program.

your recurring theme is money, money, money.
and how it's all better.

what's more, the way you tell it,a whole bunch of boaters are low life vagrant. freeloaders with no regard for the environment or personal property rights, trespassers and litterbugs?
but somehow. mooring balls cure all these ills and magically eliminate all those vices.
incredible, the power of the mooring ball!
who. knew?
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  #50  
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Re: Florida Anchoring and Mooring pilot program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
cruise dad- Each of your points are false,read on.
in Annapolis the have a pump boat, if you are ANCHORED there you are required to pumpout ,they monitor each boat that comes and goes.
so much for that argument.
As for fresh water, I have a Our Katydin RO system, so I make my own.
so much for that argument.
I have 2 heads and a shower.
So much for that argument.
I have a Splendide 2000S washer/dryer.
so much for that argument.
as for dingy access, are you familiar with the phrase PUBLIC ACCESS, or Boat Ramp?
again, so much for that argument.
Bike parking, I don't park,I ride it and take it back to the boat on my sailing /rowing dingy.
so much for that argument.
You will also note that these systems aboard my boat are not FREE as you point out (in a feeble attempt to portray me as a freeloader)
so,keep obfuscating the discussion, I can refute every point you throw up.I've heard them ALL before, they are still false flags.
you see Dave, I have no problem with casual hobby boaters who ill prepare there craft so they can visit places.
I do take issue with those same people when they try to tell me what I cannot do.
this is not just a passing interest, it's my lifestyle, I plan on living it until I'm dead.
most do not.
Exactly my point. You just showed the need for these things. So, using that reasoning...

Are you suggesting that every boat has a watermaker? SHould we pass a law that every boat has to have a water maker?

Should we pass a law that every boat has to have a shower?

I don't CARE what Annapolis is doing, we are talking about Florida. So who is going to pay for your little pumpout boat in Florida? SHould the state eat that cost so you don't have to pony up $15 for a mooring ball? Just so you know, my last pumpout in Fort Myers Beach at a marina was $25 (and that is without tip)!!! That is more than the cost of a mooring ball!!

That you have a head on your boat means little to me. What does mean something to me is what you do with it when it is full!!

Where are you taking your trash, Joe?? Trash is one of the biggest issues facing cruisers.

Where are you making your water, Joe? Would you make that water in Fort Myers Beach without a pumpout boat when people are dumping their crap all around you? DOn't tell me it didn't happen, I was there. Would you do it in Boot Key?

I am glad you have a washer and dryer. You should participate in my thread on washing clothes aboard. I have a bucket and Magic Wonder that works great too (read my thread). But how many other people have this stuff?? Or should we pass a law that everyone has to have a Splindide on their boat? Guess what Joe, since it may heave been a while since you were down here as you hate these mooring balls, want to know how you are going to wash your clothes in Marathon without using the city marinas (balls)? YOU AREN'T. They closed down the last laudromat. So it is the city, a marina, or a bucket... unless we pass the Splidide Law.

Most cruisers and live aboards, Joe, do NOT bring their bikes back and forth. SHould we also pass a law that requires all bicycles to be hauled back to boats everyday so we don't have to have a mooring ball?

SO tell me how you fix this stuff? Tell me why the old system worked, Joe. I was there. I remember. It didn't. Period.

The issue here is that while you may have many of the systems to work around some of these problems, most boaters dont. And are you actually expecting everyone to have a water maker at X thousands of dollars? A washer/dryer at X thousands of dollars? Your argument simply doesn't work. It hasn't worked. It will never work.

Brian
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