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  #11  
Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

A bit simplified:

The Racing Rules of Sailing are a private contract between racing boats and an organizing authority in which the competitors agree to replace the standard IRPCAS/COLREGS or Inland Rules with the RRS. The RRS are designed to allow for boats being very close together yet still maneuver in a safe and predictable manner. The COLREGS by contrast strongly discourage close maneuvering and expect boats to make early and substantial action to eliminate risk of collision.

(The RRS apply ONLY among the competitors. The regular COLREGS apply to encounters with non-racers. In special cases of high-level regattas such as the AC, the organizers may be able to have a race course closed to non-competitors, but that depends on proper arrangements being made with local authorities, and is not typical for most racing. In areas with heavy traffic or special hazards, local authorities may impose special requirements on the race organizers and boats.)

Under the RRS, the leeward boat is in some circumstances limited to a "proper course" (if overlap is acquired after the start by the action of the leeward boat from astern and within two boat lengths), but this is not generally a huge limitation, and this is not just one course, but any course that would be the fast way around the course in the absence of any other boats. At any given time, a boat may have multiple "proper courses" from which to choose.

Under the RRS, the leeward boat can luff up the windward boat, but upon leeward acquiring right of way, she must initially give windward an opportunity to keep clear. This opportunity is limited in time and windward must respond to leeward's luff if it is possible for her to do so. Exceptions might be if there are obstructions/hazards immediately to windward of the windward boat.

Contact between boats is discouraged under the RRS, but does not necessarily result in a penalty.

There are some fine points of difference between the general fleet racing rules in the RRS, and the special rules for match racing. The most visible difference is the procedure of a pre-start entry into a "starting box". There are also some other bits that bring the match racing RRS even further from the COLREGS and allow for more intense and aggressive maneuvering than would be acceptable in a large fleet.

Also, match racing tends to be the sphere of action of highly skilled sailors, with the America's Cup being an extreme case. AC sailors are expected to be capable of a high level of seamanship and to be able to safely execute close-quarters tactical "moves" that are a standard part of the canon of match racing. This is still true in spite of the fact that the crews in this year's Cup were also very busy mastering extreme high-performance boats.

A fun article,
Fleet and Match Racing Rules Compared | Sailing World

Last edited by rgscpat; 09-27-2013 at 01:41 AM.
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  #12  
Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

On occasion some races are operated under the standard col-regs so it is important to read the SI prior to the race.
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Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
That's my point.
I think this is a racing modification to standard rules.

If you are ahead of me and we are cruising and your in an old tub with blown out sails and can't point too well and I've got a race boat that can point 35 true and sneak in an overlap on your leeward side that fact that I was the aggressor and was behind means even if I make myself the leeward boat I still have to keep clear.

As the burdened boat I can't do anything to force you to move.

No more than if I'm on your starboard side about 125 degrees off your bow and I think I'm clever and maneuver my boat so I'm 115 degrees off your bow thinking that I shifted the burden to you.
It doesn't work that way.

Once I have the burden which be definition is only in a situation where a risk of collision occurs I have to give way until their is no longer any risk of collision I can't in any way just shift it to you.

I tried to read the 55 times overlap is used in the rules and they were incomprehensible to me so maybe a real racer can give a simplified version.
if you are overtaking and before the overlap you are the burdened boat, as soon as there is an overlap to leeward you are no longer the overtaking boat, you are now the leeward boat and have right a way
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Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

There are different rules to establishing an overlap on a run too.
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Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

It's interesting that Rule 17 of the most recent Rules of Sailing:

"17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail
above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and
overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear"

is omitted from the AC sailing rules if this document is correct:
http://static.squarespace.com/static...on-v-1.19..pdf
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  #16  
Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

Overlap: They overlap when neither is clear astern. (interpreted, as if either boat turning would impact another).

The rules in question are:
11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

Oracle got an overlap (as soon as his ama was inches overlapped with NZ)
The other biggy in play here is:
14 AVOIDING CONTACT
A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible.
However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat
is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and
(b) shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does
not cause damage or injury.

NZ didn't follow 14... (because they allowed themselves to be "pushed" above close haul, and they nearly stalled, then eventually did after contact)...

Now Oracle was diving home a point, when they came up 14a, but they (if you noticed) started to fall off once they proved they could not come up, and you cat owners can comment here, but started to fall off again (bare away), but it was slow... NZ was NOW stalled, and fell off quicker again this was exactly what oracle was attempting (and they did this knowing both boats were going at a slower speed, because they were wasting time trying to get to the mark)... at which time Oracle intentionally slowed their bare off... and contact was made (sort of intentionally), so to prove a point. NOW Oracle is PUSHING 14b, to prove NZ broke 14.

So I didn't see 3 collisions... maybe I missed something, I saw Windward constrict leeward (penalty).. then I saw windward NOT avoid Leeward 14b when they collided, while oracle was SLOWLY bearing away... That was slick... it was during that was a tap, then a worse tap... so I saw 2... but if the initial "constriction" was an impact, it was a VERY LIGHT one. The 2nd or 3rd depending on how many there were, was the one that actually left a mark.

now as far as Ainsle saying "we're tryign to tack?" I didn't hear that, I heard "C'mon here you're supposed to bear away!" as a response to the 2nd more "damaging" impact... which was contrived to prove the penalty. Either way it was racing tactics 101, expertly executed.

As far as the RRS overriding Colregs? um I read the RRS basically in LINE with Colregs. You as a competitor are REQUIRED to avoid contact, regardless of the "stand on" vessel.

I am just a weekend racer, and my word is not law... many others here know these rules better than I.... that's how I saw it... and honestly I thought it was brilliant.

But ONE observation... my boat will turn on a dime and isn't multi-million dollar carbon fiber goodness... and honestly I don't think I'd have the guts to make such a bold move in such. I might try it with my paid for plug... but only with another sailor I knew well, because some sailors panic once there is impact... and steer hard away (throwing their stern into you as they pivot on their keel, very rookie move, but it's done).
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  #17  
Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

more races are won and lost on fine interpertations of those rules. It is all part of the strategy
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Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

Quote:
"17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail
above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and
overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear"
I also read this as the leeward boat has not gained a proper overlap and is the burdened vessel so if the windward vessel soaks down the leeward has to give way though I believe this is only applicable on a run and not on a beat.

I am referring to an overlap outside of the zone

Last edited by ScottUK; 09-27-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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  #19  
Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

The Kiwis could not bear off to stay in front of Oracle because that would put them over the line early. So Oracle not only got into to position to get overlap but they also did it at the exact right time and place.
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Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
The Racing Rules of Sailing are a private contract between racing boats and an organizing authority in which the competitors agree to replace the standard IRPCAS/COLREGS or Inland Rules with the RRS.
Oh boy. Be careful with that one.

We went round and round on that in another thread. A lot of cruising sailors didn't like that idea.

Why all the angst against racing on Sailnet?
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 09-27-2013 at 09:43 AM.
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