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-   -   Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's (http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/104143-americas-cup-triple-touch-penalty-kiwis.html)

davidpm 09-26-2013 09:10 PM

Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's
 
I've raced a very little but usually I'm so busy grinding something I never get a chance to look up and see what is going on so pardon a dumb question.

About three races from the end the boats touched and the Kiwi's got a penalty.

Could someone explain that.
It looked to me like the american boat came up from behind which in normal rules would mean it was burdened but apparently the rules are different in racing.

So exactly what happened and why?

SchockT 09-26-2013 09:36 PM

Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's
 
As soon as the leeward boat gains an overlap they become the right of way boat, and the windward boat has to keep clear.the leftward boat can then luff up and windward has to go with them. Windward can not come back down until leftward bears off. ETNZe came down to them and bumped them. I suspect they had very little steerage because both boats were almost stopped.

Silvio 09-26-2013 09:38 PM

Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's
 
My take (and only my limited understanding of these things) is that Oracle managed to overlap Emirates and were to leeward while both were on the same tack making Emirates the give way vessel. WHen Emirates failed "to do all they were able" to bear away and avoid contact they were assessed a penalty. I don't think the penalty mattered for all practical purposes since the Kiwis were then stalled out completely after making contact.

davidpm 09-26-2013 10:15 PM

Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's
 
I normal rules of the road I don't believe it works this way.

The rule that supersede all others is that if you are the burdened boat, in this case the overtaking boat their is nothing you can do to shift the burden to the other boat.
You have to give way until their is no risk of collision.

It makes sense that it would be different in a race though.
Couldn't the kiwi's just fallen off enough to stay in front of the US boat?

BarryL 09-26-2013 10:49 PM

Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's
 
Hi,

This is standard rules of the road stuff. Oracle was behind and had to keep clear of a boat ahead. Then they sailed 'under' NZ and gained an overlap. At this point they were no longer behind, but were on the same tack and were leeward. The rules state that windward must keep clear of leeward. A leeward boat can come up and the windward boat must keep clear. Since NZ didn't 'do all they were able to do' to keep clear, and eventually hit Oracle, they were assessed a penalty.

At least that's my understanding!

Barry

smackdaddy 09-26-2013 10:55 PM

Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's
 
My favorite part of that was BenA throwing up his arms yelling "Hey, we're trying to tack here!"

Tack? Back to the starting line? Nice.

davidpm 09-26-2013 11:34 PM

Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryL (Post 1094533)
Hi,

This is standard rules of the road stuff.
Barry

That's my point.
I think this is a racing modification to standard rules.

If you are ahead of me and we are cruising and your in an old tub with blown out sails and can't point too well and I've got a race boat that can point 35 true and sneak in an overlap on your leeward side that fact that I was the aggressor and was behind means even if I make myself the leeward boat I still have to keep clear.

As the burdened boat I can't do anything to force you to move.

No more than if I'm on your starboard side about 125 degrees off your bow and I think I'm clever and maneuver my boat so I'm 115 degrees off your bow thinking that I shifted the burden to you.
It doesn't work that way.

Once I have the burden which be definition is only in a situation where a risk of collision occurs I have to give way until their is no longer any risk of collision I can't in any way just shift it to you.

I tried to read the 55 times overlap is used in the rules and they were incomprehensible to me so maybe a real racer can give a simplified version.

WoobaGooba 09-27-2013 12:02 AM

Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's
 
Before the start signal, a boat establishing an overlap from behind and leeward (aka a "hook") has the right to bring the windward boat head to wind and hold it there (caveat must give windward boat opportunity to get clear). After the start signal, the leeward boat must bear away to proper course.

Rules are here http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...5B13376%5D.pdf

Cheers

Omatako 09-27-2013 12:21 AM

Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by davidpm (Post 1094553)
If you are ahead of me and we are cruising and your in an old tub with blown out sails and can't point too well and I've got a race boat that can point 35 true and sneak in an overlap on your leeward side that fact that I was the aggressor and was behind means even if I make myself the leeward boat I still have to keep clear.

Actually no. The rules on right of way for sailing boats say that when two boats are on the same tack, the weather boat keeps clear. This is not just a racing rule.

The process of "luffing" another boat is a firm and uncontestable tactic in racing. So it's not about any logic like "Why would anyone tack at a time like that". It's about "I have the right to go up to weather right here and you legally have to get the heck out of my way". The luffing boat does not need a reason.

But if, in the process of luffing, the luffing boat would not come up against the side of the weather boat (overlap) then it's not a legal luff. So you can't come up from behind a boat on his leeward side and then turn up to weather setting a course that puts him in your path because you then do not have overlap and you're actually the clear astern boat and he has the right of way.

It's easier to explain this when you have toy boats on a table :)

And it's not about contact. If you are to windward of me and you prevent me from sailing the course I want to sail, then you have a penalty. Boats don't have to touch.

capta 09-27-2013 01:03 AM

Re: Americas cup triple touch penalty to Kiwi's
 
In racing, from what I understand, the rules are somewhat different and the term "right of way" still applies, possibly for simplicity's sake.
Collisions and forcing a boat to turn away because one has the right of way are not something that coincides with the collregs. It is a whole different ball of wax, because in racing no boat is obliged to avoid a collision; it's up to the race committee to decide who is at fault, not the USCG. These are not laws we are talking about, but rules for racing.
I must admit, I was shocked that the USCG did not stick their unwelcome nose into it, but I guess someone had the sense to rein them in. They did get involved after Mr. Simpson's death and forced the wind speed limitations, which the race committee had to abide by.
Had there not been a fatality before the races began, it may have been a much different series.


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