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  #51  
Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

So you re saying you were running before the wind , 4-5 ft seas with a genoa. That moves all the force forward on the boat to te bow. As you dropped down the face of a wave it would pull the bow down. A recipie for trouble .

Wouldn't it just be better to reef your main and keep the center of force further back.

In my experience when my boat is overmatched because of sail area, the object is to reduce it, not shift the center of force forward. It makes the boat harder to handle. To gain control of te conditions balancing the boat is most important. One sail up, epecially the jib makes my boat more difficult to steer.

Dave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
There are others here with tons more experience than me, but in response to OP prior stated concern about gybing in following seas, running on genoa alone completely eliminates the threat of a gybe. Perhaps that's obvious, but I didn't see it mentioned.

Virtually all my sailing is in protected river water, but last May I was down in Delaware Bay by Miah Maull Shoal when it started to blow and I was caigjt in 4-5' following seas. I did manage to get on the cabin top to get my sail down (no lazy jacks on my boat), and then ran on the genoa. Even with that, I had my hands full pulling the wheel all the way to port every few seconds to prevent broaching. It took both hands, and lasted about 90 minutes. I had a water bottle on my binnacle drink holder and could not pause long enough to take a drink. My mouth dried out so much I ended up with cracked lips, but I just couldn't grab the water bottle.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 09-27-2013 at 10:33 PM.
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  #52  
Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Yeah, lots of talk about jibs in this thread. I wonder how a AMF PaceShip PY26 sails on just the main?

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  #53  
Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
So you re saying you were running before the wind , 4-5 ft seas with a genoa...
That is what I did. Remember, my genoa is only a 110. I actually started with a reefed main, but the following seas on my starboard quarter were turning the boat so much that uncontrolled gybes were unavoidable. (Note that I have swept-back spreaders which limit how far I can let out my boom, which also makes it more susceptible to unintentional gybes.) After a few of them I realized the main was causing more harm than good. I turned into the wind long enough to drop the mainsail and went on genoa alone, which worked fine as long as I corrected after each swell. I never came close to pitchpoling my bow, mainly because the waves were overtaking my boat instead of my boat overtaking the waves.

FWIW, I did the exact same thing on my charter boat last January running north of Tortola from Virgin Gorda to Jost Van Dyke. On that trip I passed three boats who were all experiencing unintentional gybes from the following wave action, and I was making better time with a smaller boat on genoa alone.

Where I was on Delaware Bay (east of G27 on Miah Maull Range), I did not have the option of changing course to keep the wind further abeam, because going further to port would have put me into the shipping channel or run aground on Joe Flogger Shoal, or further to starboard would have run aground on Cross Ledge. So I had to "thread the needle" on a course of 323T.
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Last edited by TakeFive; 09-27-2013 at 11:42 PM.
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  #54  
Old 09-27-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Well for reiteration I had no sails up and really if you watch the video of ponce you would have a hard time with any sail raised with the short steef drops and more importantly the course I had to run to get back in safe. Sail up leaving and ive got to head east. Soon as i passed the jetty would have been broadside on so would have had to head upwind asap assuming I didnt get rolled first.
then sailing upwind id have to wait for a lull, like i did, and turn about. Without a preventer rigged gybes would be hard and fast not to mention the short period between waves. Chances are the rudder would get slammed far over and the next wave right behind would have caught me.

Assuimg i made it through those two courses now im south east of the inlet and i have to turn and head north west directly into the wind. So now i have to tack back and forth through breakers with no time between waves and shoals on the port with a rock jetty wall on the starboard... I really dont see sails helping much unless I was out deeper. Main only has one reef point fyi. I could not have went without both sails up.
if i had only the main I could not have sailed upwind back into the inlet. If i only had head I couldnt tack through the wind without stalling out and risking a broach.

It was just a stupid day to go out and i count my blessings i made it home safe with no damage done except to my pride.
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Old 09-28-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
I am a bit confused. Two weeks ago had great sail with winds out of north and 10 to 15 knot breeze. Now for fall and winter winds prevail from north so what am i to underdtand? No sailing until spring and a return of the southerly winds?
stream was 27 miles off ponce as of yesterday.

when is it cool to go in fall and winter with predominately northern winds?
More than likely that figure (27 miles) was for the axis of the stream. That's the center, not the extreme Fla edge. The stream can do very strange things after rounding Cape Canaveral; eddies and swirls, and these can interfere with the counter current normally found near shore. The stream is kinda like a magical mystery tour; I don't know if anybody understands all it's peculiarities.
As for heading south, outside, most folks I know try to sail with easterlies or westerlies, going inside on northerlies and winds from the south. If memory servers, there are few low bridges left in Fla so it could be a really nice sail under jib alone in the ditch.
As others have suggested, a roller furling jib would be a huge advantage for your single handing adventures; not having to go forward to set sail in an emergency, nor having to change to a smaller sail on the foredeck in crappy weather. Perhaps you could see it more as a safety thing, rather than selling out. We can bring out our Yankee in about 90 seconds and be sailing; no going forward, no sail ties and only as much out as we need.
Just a thought.
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  #56  
Old 09-28-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
That is what I did. Remember, my genoa is only a 110. I actually started with a reefed main, but the following seas on my starboard quarter were turning the boat so much that uncontrolled gybes were unavoidable. (Note that I have swept-back spreaders which limit how far I can let out my boom, which also makes it more susceptible to unintentional gybes.) After a few of them I realized the main was causing more harm than good. I turned into the wind long enough to drop the mainsail and went on genoa alone, which worked fine as long as I corrected after each swell. I never came close to pitchpoling my bow, mainly because the waves were overtaking my boat instead of my boat overtaking the waves.

FWIW, I did the exact same thing on my charter boat last January running north of Tortola from Virgin Gorda to Jost Van Dyke. On that trip I passed three boats who were all experiencing unintentional gybes from the following wave action, and I was making better time with a smaller boat on genoa alone.

Where I was on Delaware Bay (east of G27 on Miah Maull Range), I did not have the option of changing course to keep the wind further abeam, because going further to port would have put me into the shipping channel or run aground on Joe Flogger Shoal, or further to starboard would have run aground on Cross Ledge. So I had to "thread the needle" on a course of 323T.
So you post this

Quote:
There are others here with tons more experience than me, but in response to OP prior stated concern about gybing in following seas, running on genoa alone completely eliminates the threat of a gybe. Perhaps that's obvious, but I didn't see it mentioned.

Virtually all my sailing is in protected river water, but last May I was down in Delaware Bay by Miah Maull Shoal when it started to blow and I was caigjt in 4-5' following seas. I did manage to get on the cabin top to get my sail down (no lazy jacks on my boat), and then ran on the genoa. Even with that, I had my hands full pulling the wheel all the way to port every few seconds to prevent broaching. It took both hands, and lasted about 90 minutes. I had a water bottle on my binnacle drink holder and could not pause long enough to take a drink. My mouth dried out so much I ended up with cracked lips, but I just couldn't grab the water bottle.
,

And when someone gives you advice you push back. What difference does your first and only sortie in the Carribean mean in terms of speed vrs strain on the boat which can be fixed with a vang or course change. The object here is to gain safe control, not look or speed. Decreasing the pressure on your boat and centering the driving force as well as minimal use the wave action and gain control. Again by your own admission you still didn't have control for 90 minutes. You still have more sail area up than a reefed main even with our 110. I've seen more broaches/ knockdowns caused by genoa s and really never seen one with a reefed only main. I've also seen more blown out jibs or jibs wrapped around the forestay in conditions like you describe.

First of all that's why made preventers for mains. They help quell uncontrollable gybes of the boom. By your own admission above you boat was not under control. A preventer or boom vang would have helped control this. Also another tactic would be to pull the reefed main into the center tight and run a course with many small mini gybes. Kind of like tail wagging.

Second with the main only reefed the center of force is lower and in the center of the boat. Less strain and pumping the mast. Especially a cabin top setup.

Third, no one spoke about pitch poling. That would happen if you raed down the wave face. Of course the waves moved under the boat faster, that was understood. Especially on the Delaware where they are known to have short intervals.

Fourth, having sailed the Delaware many times in the specific area you spoke of I stay east of the shoals near the lighthouse ruins and NEVER go between them at Cross Ledge. They will amplify the wave action and increase the wave height.

I suggest you buy a block and tackle preventer and practice heavier wind downhill sailing as your swept back rig does have the obvious shortcomings for downwind traveling. Does your double reefed main still hit the spreaders?
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Last edited by chef2sail; 09-28-2013 at 03:25 AM.
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  #57  
Old 09-28-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Those waves look really ugly. Lots of power there.

Harborless it seems like when I was in my 20's I did a lot of this sort of stupid thing. I was always out in whitecaps or rollers in my 20's and now in my 40's I seem to always hit the weather perfect. You will learn it.

I always look at a surface map for the current conditions and then a day out. I like the post where someone mentioned the difference between convection wind and wind from a system. Although I looked at a national surfce map for Thursday and I can't see what cause those conditions.

Here is the sailflow plot for ponce during the time you were out - 18 knots turning North Most wouldn't have left sheltered water looking at that. The prediction on the bottom does seem to confirm Marks statement that conditions are looking better Sunday/Monday

[IMG][/IMG]
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Last edited by Sal Paradise; 09-28-2013 at 08:35 AM.
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  #58  
Old 09-28-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

The slope of your learning curve just increased dramatically? You'll never forget this experience and will now be a large factor in your decision-making process for future decisions. Congrats for bringing her home safely. Truly enjoyed hearing about your experience. I hope you still plan on doing your overnight trip.
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  #59  
Old 09-28-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Instead of a preventer, perhaps consider a boom brake of some sort. With a brake that at least slows down the damage that can be done by an unintentional jibe, you'll be less hesitant to use the main. With a brake, you also have less worry about burying the end of the boom and bending it. Setting up a preventer when going long distances in regular sea conditions is a lot different than trying to set one in breaking, changing, confused seas such as around an inlet.

With the main up, it wouldn't have been necessary to actually beat back against the wind. Having it reefed and close hauled with the boom centered would have provided some stability even if luffing a bit. I will often keep my main up even if motoring against the wind. If the sail can be kept full even a little, it makes the ride more stable. Of course if you're absolutely dead into wind, all it does is luff and beat the heck out of the sailcloth.
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Old 09-28-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
More than likely that figure (27 miles) was for the axis of the stream. That's the center, not the extreme Fla edge. The stream can do very strange things after rounding Cape Canaveral; eddies and swirls, and these can interfere with the counter current normally found near shore. The stream is kinda like a magical mystery tour; I don't know if anybody understands all it's peculiarities.
I don't think so - right now, NOAA is reporting the west wall of the Stream to be 43 miles E of Ponce:

Quote:
The approximate location of the west wall of the Gulf Stream based on data from the real time ocean forecast system on Friday September 27th. 43 nautical miles east of Ponce Inlet. 34 nautical miles east of Port Canaveral. 29 nautical miles east of Sebastian Inlet. 21 nautical miles east of Fort Pierce inlet. 13 nautical miles east of Saint Lucie inlet.
I have never found the Stream to be as remotely close to shore in that area as you've described... There can be plenty of weirdness/confused seas passing close by Canaveral, but that's often as much due to the shallowness of the water, as anything else... Running coastwise or as close to the beach as Harborless was, the first encounter with the effects of the Stream I generally find is just south of St Lucie Inlet, the waters off Hobe Sound and N of Jupiter Inlet are always pretty stirred up by back eddies off the Stream...

Once past Palm Beach, the axis of the Stream usually runs just about due N at least to around 30 N. Last time I rode the Stream north was back in June, Chris Parker suggested the axis was running at 79 50 W up to around 30 N, and he was right on the money, we nailed it all the way up to Hatteras, making it from Ft Pierce to Annapolis on an H-R 43 in 4 days, 2 hours...



Last edited by JonEisberg; 09-28-2013 at 07:52 AM.
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