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  #61  
Old 09-28-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You made it back. And you learned some lessons about heavy weather.

Being stupid is not leaving the slip.
Every ship is safe in the harbor, but that's now where it was designed to be.
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  #62  
Old 09-28-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...And when someone gives you advice you push back. What difference does your first and only sortie in the Carribean mean...
First...
Second...
Third...
Fourth...
Dave - The condescension and the prosecutorial zeal of your response tells me to just walk away. Especially when clarifying my facts just gets labeled as "pushing back," which conveys a desire to shut down the discussion and belittle my comments.

But I am genuinely interested in learning, even if a bit annoyed by your tone. Please point me to a reference that explains why running on genoa alone is never to be done. I want to see it.

I had already tried some of the things you suggested, and found that in that situation genoa alone seemed to be working better and was the most controllable, even if I had to work to maintain control. I had no pumping (I've experienced pumping before in other situations, so I know what that's like). The genoa was always full and never came close to wrapping at the point of sail that I was on. I had tried sheeting in the reefed main like you suggested, but its twisting moment on the boat was almost uncontrollable. I had tackle for a preventer, but not happy with it. When I went to the genoa alone, the pulling motion from moving the center of effort forward felt much more controllable, even though I had to work the wheel to counteract the wave effect on the stern.

When a tow boat attaches a line to pull you, do you attach it to the bow, or somewhere behind the mast? It sure seems like pulling from the bow is more stable. That's what it felt like when I was out there.

I remember a heated discussion on this website about the merits of running on jib alone, but I've searched around and can't find it. So if someone can post the link, or link some other reference that warns about its pitfalls, I'll be happy to consider it. I am interested in learning, asking questions, and making comments, even if you think it's "push back." I would prefer that you not shut down the discussion.
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  #63  
Old 09-28-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Let me clarify. I am not against sailing on jib alone. I do it in controlled conditions. I in fact did it today in 12 knot winds and benign conditions.

Running downwind in the conditions you describe I think there is an easier, less stressful on the boat, safer way to sail it.

Buy a preventer/ vang. It keeps to boom from swinging uncontrollably. Reduce sail area. Keep the center of motion to the mast middle of the boat than forward. Keep the center lower by use of a reefed main. Maybe try the tail wagging technique I have used

I have seen a boat get pulled by a full jib burying into the wave before it or in a trough, seen the sail fill with water a further pull the bow down . You yourself said you could barely control it or 90 minutes. That should be the clue your technique my not have worked as well as another. The conditions you were in were not that overboard to have stressed you.


The towing analogy doesn't make sense as its it isn't in he conditions you described nor is the pressure from the tow high up like the wind behind a jib led up he mast. You re also being pulled in a to not pushed. The force is low on one point on the NW, no changing high up on e forestay.




Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Dave - The condescension and the prosecutorial zeal of your response tells me to just walk away. Especially when clarifying my facts just gets labeled as "pushing back," which conveys a desire to shut down the discussion and belittle my comments.

But I am genuinely interested in learning, even if a bit annoyed by your tone. Please point me to a reference that explains why running on genoa alone is never to be done. I want to see it.

I had already tried some of the things you suggested, and found that in that situation genoa alone seemed to be working better and was the most controllable, even if I had to work to maintain control. I had no pumping (I've experienced pumping before in other situations, so I know what that's like). The genoa was always full and never came close to wrapping at the point of sail that I was on. I had tried sheeting in the reefed main like you suggested, but its twisting moment on the boat was almost uncontrollable. I had tackle for a preventer, but not happy with it. When I went to the genoa alone, the pulling motion from moving the center of effort forward felt much more controllable, even though I had to work the wheel to counteract the wave effect on the stern.

When a tow boat attaches a line to pull you, do you attach it to the bow, or somewhere behind the mast? It sure seems like pulling from the bow is more stable. That's what it felt like when I was out there.

I remember a heated discussion on this website about the merits of running on jib alone, but I've searched around and can't find it. So if someone can post the link, or link some other reference that warns about its pitfalls, I'll be happy to consider it. I am interested in learning, asking questions, and making comments, even if you think it's "push back." I would prefer that you not shut down the discussion.
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  #64  
Old 09-28-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

I wouldn't have thought this post would go 7 pages at first read...
The experience harborless had was, for him, (and for us), once safe and sound, both illustrative and positive.
My own occasionally harrowing stupid moments have also turned out for the best...thus far...and with the passage of time seem less drastic than the pulse-pumping moments they were at the time.. .Can't escape the feeling that one or two on this thread have taken the opportunity to disparage the poster. Though he himself was perhaps the leader(in disparagement), in a sense, I find it a bit strange that others would seem to almost pile on in a few of the comments I read.

We're all never sure when our judgment and experience (and exuberance) will be tested in the particular kinds of sailing each of us do...so I try to learn from what happened to others and attempt to keep any temptations to pile on at bay...But sometimes we fail(fall)...
Okay Harborless...wtf were you thinking that morning...? I can ask that since I have asked it of myself at times. One thing I'm sure of as others have said, the "stupid" guy stayed in that harbor morning(or wound upon the rocks of that jetty or worse).
You, however, you, went in quest of watery adventure and perhaps some trial (as humans are wont to do) and proceeded to learn some useful lessons and got back that morning, smarter and in one piece without help or rescue. In hindsight, it seems not so stupid...and maybe to quote the rockband "The Who"...it was just another tricky day...for you.
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Last edited by souljour2000; 09-29-2013 at 10:00 AM.
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  #65  
Old 09-29-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

There is a lot of talk here of gybing in strong winds I have sailed at least 1000 miles in the south pacific and tasman sea with my no 2 genoa poled out the end of my boom and the main furled,this eliminates any chance of a nasty gybe and the boat steers a lot easier when sailing down wind all the main does is try and round you up big pain in the ass.Am glad to see you made it back safely a good lesson learnt.I never trust my engine ever and always have at least my main ready to raise quickly and my anchor is always ready to deploy.Dont let your trip put you off its all part of the learning process,and it sounds like your forecast is like ours down here if it says 20 thats the average it could be gusting 35 Happy sailing
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  #66  
Old 09-29-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

harmonic

I'm just asking. I've sailed down wind on just the jib, but ....aren't there advantages to using a balanced sail plan if you forsee you might have to change course? What about using the main to block the jib so you can take the jib in if need be?

Seems to be a bit of commitment to running down wind on just the jib. If overpowered, then you better hope you can furl it later on.
If there is a chance of being overpowered.. I like the main there to block the wind in case I have to take the jib down.
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  #67  
Old 09-29-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
Well Thanks for the advice. I deserve worse however I put myself out publicly in order that I may recieve advice as well as at times a hopefully interesting story.

I think if you looked, as I have already, you will see that after previous disasters I have acceppted and made use of the gadvice given. No need to start a list here.

Im continuing my climb up. In a few years I could be there to put mine in your ear after some somethings not called Fosters.

OK no more attempts at defense from me just wanted to acknowledge the fact im not REALLY stupid (imo) i just sometimes do stupid, grant it yesterday rvery stupid, things. So perhaps i would be considered slightly stoopid! Preach it Collieman-

Good advice laced with personal jabs is still good advice. I try to accept it gracefully, gratefully and with humility. The toughest teachers are sometime the best teachers. BTW I admire the path you are taking to learn how to sail.
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  #68  
Old 09-30-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
harmonic

I'm just asking. I've sailed down wind on just the jib, but ....aren't there advantages to using a balanced sail plan if you forsee you might have to change course? What about using the main to block the jib so you can take the jib in if need be?

Seems to be a bit of commitment to running down wind on just the jib. If overpowered, then you better hope you can furl it later on.
If there is a chance of being overpowered.. I like the main there to block the wind in case I have to take the jib down.
hi sal Never had a furler in those days just hanks if it needed changing I just rounded up into the wind and dropped it no worrys,always had lots of sea room .
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  #69  
Old 09-30-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Let me clarify. I am not against sailing on jib alone. I do it in controlled conditions. I in fact did it today in 12 knot winds and benign conditions.

Running downwind in the conditions you describe I think there is an easier, less stressful on the boat, safer way to sail it.

Buy a preventer/ vang. It keeps to boom from swinging uncontrollably. Reduce sail area. Keep the center of motion to the mast middle of the boat than forward. Keep the center lower by use of a reefed main. Maybe try the tail wagging technique I have used

I have seen a boat get pulled by a full jib burying into the wave before it or in a trough, seen the sail fill with water a further pull the bow down . You yourself said you could barely control it or 90 minutes. That should be the clue your technique my not have worked as well as another. The conditions you were in were not that overboard to have stressed you.
I don't know, every boat I've ever sailed deep downwind in heavier breezes much prefers being 'pulled' along by a headsail forward of the boat's CLR/'pivot point', than while being 'pushed' by a mainsail and CE aft of the CLR, thus encouraging weather helm... In the sort of situation Take Five describes, that's an instance where lee helm is actually desirable, it will help keep the boat on track downwind in boisterous conditions, greatly easing the amount of steering input required by a helmsperson or autopilot/vane... Other advantages of dumping the main include eliminating the dangerous potential of an accidental jibe, and the extreme wear and tear on the main from being plastered against the spreaders and shrouds... There's a pretty good reason why running under headsails alone is a common approach taken by many voyagers on lengthy tradewind passages being sailed at or close to DDW...

In the sort of situation pictured here, my boat will be FAR more controllable and content being pulled along by her staysail alone, than she would be while being driven under a deeply reefed main, or storm trysail, which would situate the CE aft of the CLR...

BTW, what is this "tail wagging" technique of which you speak? :-)


TakeFive, TTC and harmonic like this.

Last edited by JonEisberg; 09-30-2013 at 08:55 AM.
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  #70  
Old 09-30-2013
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Re: Got to Stop being Stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I don't know, every boat I've ever sailed deep downwind in heavier breezes much prefers being 'pulled' along by a headsail forward of the boat's CLR/'pivot point', than while being 'pushed' by a mainsail and CE aft of the CLR, thus encouraging weather helm... In the sort of situation Take Five describes, that's an instance where lee helm is actually desirable, it will help keep the boat on track downwind in boisterous conditions, greatly easing the amount of steering input required by a helmsperson or autopilot/vane... Other advantages of dumping the main include eliminating the dangerous potential of an accidental jibe, and the extreme wear and tear on the main from being plastered against the spreaders and shrouds... There's a pretty good reason why running under headsails alone is a common approach taken by many voyagers on lengthy tradewind passages being sailed at or close to DDW...

In the sort of situation pictured here, my boat will be FAR more controllable and content being pulled along by her staysail alone, than she would be while being driven under a deeply reefed main, or storm trysail, which would situate the CE aft of the CLR...

BTW, what is this "tail wagging" technique of which you speak? :-)
That's what I've been trying to say. Nice to see that one of our "braintrust" actually agrees with me on something.
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