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I Think I Found The Right Boat

7K views 57 replies 23 participants last post by  pforeman98 
#1 ·
Well Ok, after looking at a half dozen boats here in Arizona I think I found one to make an offer on. It's an early 80's Catalina 27 that's in pretty nice shape hut needs some attention as I have OCD :eek: and since it doesn't come with a trailer I would rather just do everything now and be able to enjoy it for the next few years without haul outs or down time.

The owner tackled all the wiring, new lights, inside and out, new head, holding tank and plumbing, standing rigging, painted the mast and it has a hinge on it, new double reef main, half the lines are new and the bottom was sanded and painted with primer and put in the water in July. I don't really understand that but he said he wanted to get some sailing in after two years of "off and on" work on the boat while it was on the hard. Then he was going to pull it out next month and research which bottom paints to use...

The stuff the boat needs; new jib, both are trashed and I would just bite the bullet and invest in a roller furling as I'll be single handed a lot. Obviously the bottom needs to be taken care of properly. It has an old 7.5 hp Merc pull start outboard that is jury rigged with some crazy throttle attachment as the owner does not have it in the outboard well. Instead he added an outboard bracket to the stern and the motor is really down and far away while motoring. You couldn't operate it without the throttle attachment. I would like to trade in this motor for something with an electric start and remote controls.

The inside and outside are well cared for, the cushions are great and the wood looks like it was always oiled and cared for. It has two anchors, a brand new bimini, a very new SS barbeque and he was very proud of the fact the stove and all the outlets inside work :laugher It has a brand new radio and 4 speakers.

He replaced the keep bolts and painted the bilge up nicely and it has a new bilge pump hooked to a battery and a solar charger.

He removed the lifelines and stanchions which I don't really care for and it does not have a cover for the main, just a tarp :confused:

He's asking $9,000, but made it very clear he's open to offers and is willing to arrange to have it moved 90 miles to the lake near me. He has a trailer which he used during the rebuild and a big dually to tow it.

My plan is to have the shop at the lake I would slip it do the bottom paint, install the roller furling, order me a brand new jib, run all the lines to the cockpit which would require some additional blocks and one winch installed on the cabin top, replace the engine and wire it in as they have dozens for sale and trade there and lastly replace the life lines and stanchions and use backing plates which he does not have. I think I could be looking at $5,000 in immediate repairs and have a real nice Catalina 27.

Like I said, he kept saying make me an offer, what would you guys offer him and what do you think a real clean Catalina 27ft is worth all done up like this..?

Keep in mind, it's been posted for sale for 6 weeks and it's in a lake that may be the worst lake in the state to have a sailboat, no wind at all, he just lives a few miles away and that's why he picked that one.

Sorry for the long post and I didn't take any pictures in the excitement.
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Sorry, what I meant is - you didn't tell us your budget - but it sounds like new jib/roller furling/motor/transporting/ sail cover and then finding out the hard way down the road what he did with wiring could all become very expensive,

It would take a pristine 27' for me to spend $9,000 to sail it on a lake.

If he's negotiable maybe the low-ball $4k (if you assume $5k in immediate expenses) and him delivering the boat - otherwise walk on to another find. I bet the pickings are slim in AZ, but still, $9k for a boat with a mess of things still necessary is just a bad deal.

I bet that thing will sit on the market for months and months until he gets sick of listing it, or brings down the price.

The truth is you can find a Catalina 27 that needs the same $5000 amount of work for $2k in CA.
 
G
#4 ·
I remember my first boat purchase, an aged wooden H28 ketch. Seller wanted $7K. After diving on it and taking a test sail I offered $5k thinking it would take another $5K to get it to where I would be comfy/ proud to sail her (that's 100% to make it seaworthy, but what the hey, I like LFH's designs).

After the test sail, my wife went ashore and babysat the seller's young son while we dickered. We reached an accord and ran to the bank to close the deal before COB, then wifey and I went back to consummate the boat purchase on board.

Afterward, she said to me the kid had told her that the seller's wife told him not to come home if he hadn't sold the boat.

I gently asked her if she didn't think that would have been a good thing to tell me "before we closed the freakin' deal"?

I could have had that boat for $50 had I known.

Moral... If it's not your dream boat, you are in control. Go low and be prepared to walk away if you can't come to terms... and leave the wife at home.
 
#33 ·
I remember my first boat purchase, an aged wooden H28 ketch. Seller wanted $7K. After diving on it and taking a test sail I offered $5k thinking it would take another $5K to get it to where I would be comfy/ proud to sail her (that's 100% to make it seaworthy, but what the hey, I like LFH's designs).

After the test sail, my wife went ashore and babysat the seller's young son while we dickered. We reached an accord and ran to the bank to close the deal before COB, then wifey and I went back to consummate the boat purchase on board.

Afterward, she said to me the kid had told her that the seller's wife told him not to come home if he hadn't sold the boat.

I gently asked her if she didn't think that would have been a good thing to tell me "before we closed the freakin' deal"?

I could have had that boat for $50 had I known.

Moral... If it's not your dream boat, you are in control. Go low and be prepared to walk away if you can't come to terms... and leave the wife at home.
you could have but that would be stealing. You paid a fair price and will have a fine boat you can enjoy for years then sell it likely for a good price and move on
 
#5 ·
I think PhilZ is on to something.
There may very well be more Catalina 27's and other similar boats for sale on either coast than in Arizona.
The more boats for sale in your area the more downward pressure on prices.

$9K for a C27 as you describe sounds a bit high to me.
I'd start with a low ball offer too; like 5 or 6K. You will spend 5 - 6K getting a new motor, furler & head sail.
$7200 is 20% less than his asking price and should not be an insulting offer.
 
#6 ·
I agree AZ. I think you are looking at more than 5 thousand for a boat that as said, in great shape goes for 9 on a good day. A jib new will run ovver one grand and an engine will eat up another few before you even hit the water once. Roller furling? Your close to 5 or over now.

I strongly recomend you think about inboard diesel boats that already have roller furling. For 9 grand you can find a nice boat. You need to look at boats asking 12 to 14 and then come in with 9. Youll get a much nicer equipped boat for your money.
 
#8 ·
We sailed C27's with a sailing coop for 13 years before we bought our boat. They're great boats but $9k seems awfully high. I've seen C27 listings in PNW for around $5k
 
#9 ·
some early 80s boats will bring from 5k to 13k depending on xtras and condition. there are lots of them around. a fresh water boat may be worth a little more.
 
#10 ·
I looked at Catalinas, and they are a nice looking boat. Are the 27s trailerable? If they are, you should look at craiglist in LA. I used to live in Chandler, and it's a 6 hour drive. Looks like some pretty good deals if you're willing to drive and tow one back.

By the way, which lake are you refering to?
 
#12 ·
I am with the $9K is high group. If you want it offer 5 and you will be sailing for close to his asking. It is almost winter...there will be plenty of deals
 
#15 ·
Catalina 27 as a trailerable boat is POSSIBLE, but not a lot of fun. It's probably best to call it Owner transportable (with permits it's 9' wide afterall)...

Sadly, with today's market it DOES seem pretty high... now lemme give you some numbers to back up what these folks are saying...

A Catalina 27 should have a 9.9 hp outboard, used you MIGHT be able to get a good working one for about $700
A New 150 roller furler, and furling gear would run you about $2500 and I am going super cheap (CDI and perhaps Rolly Tasker). The sails in dacron alone woudl likely be about $1200.

Didn't put ablative, or bottom paint on eh? Assuming you don't have a colony of zebra muscles or barnacles on the bottom expect a copious amount of work to get the bottom sanded down again so you can apply bottom paint (and honestly likely another couple layers of "primer").... nobody puts "primer" on a boat bottom without bottom paint for a boat that is staying in the water. The "primer" is the hard part! Adding paint takes maybe a couple hours tops to put on top of the "primer." I really hope he means "barrier coat" and not primer too. Otherwise you might just have a boat that's delaminating below the water line right now. Because to require "primer" would indicate he sanded the bottom to the gelcoat (or lower) and thus exposed the weave to water (think blisters)... if he did it wrong it might be months of out of water time to dry it back out, and again if it's primer and not barrier coat, then you will now need to strip THAT off, and dry the hull again and apply a proper barrier coat.

I am not usually like these other guys on under $10k boats... I don't really think you can justify a boat inspector for boats in this price range... but you should probably know what makes or breaks the value of a boat before you withdraw the cash.

Cushions, lacquer, sail covers, and hull color are pretty much worthless to the value of a (sail)boat...

What adds value is a quality newer motor (4 stroke for gasser is a huge plus)... decent quality trailer (if the boat is trailerable, which includes good tires/brakes/hitch/pads)... new(er) sails... new(er) rigging (running and standing), and operational winches/cleats/hardware. These are the things that will bring you to your knees if you have to fix or replace... getting into THOUSANDS. I am not saying all these things should be new, but know what each will cost you to go in eyes wide open!

Sure cushions can cost $2500 to recover... but let's be honest... you can sit on torn cushions...
If the stove doesn't work, can you grill? yep... so that's not a big deal.
Electrical (at least the DC side) is pretty easy to do... even the AC isn't a huge deal breaker for most.

What you should be looking for:
Great running newer motor (none of this, frankenmotor stuff)
Nice new(er) bottom job cause this is a PITA to do, and expensive to pay someone to do.
New(er) running and standing rigging.. LOOK AT CHAINPLATES they'll show you right away if there are leaks and if you should consider the boat a lost cause.... bulkheads will be soft if they leak!
look for snaggies on the standing rigging... that indicates long overdue rigging upgrade.
Look for crazing on the decks... if you see spider cracks on a 30+ yo boat you can consider that normal... but if those cracks are wide enough to get caked with dirt... that means it's exposed the weave below it (and likely the core, and if that core is wood, oh boy, for various reasons a lot of boats will use wood core, which is fine, see the cored boats thread, it's ONLY a problem when that wood core gets wet, for obvious reasons)...

Look for soft spots on deck... NOT flexible spots... people confuse this... Sometimes it's OK for the deck to flex some (especially in lighter constructed boats), but that isn't the same as soft.... soft is unmistakable... it'll feel like walking on a wet sponge (cause you kind of are)...

For some reason people downplay "older sails." The single best improvement you can make in the sailability of your boat, is new sails. Older blown out sails are a challenge JUST to get to set right (no less raise and use). I say this when I purchased MY boat with 30yo sails... and they were just TERRIBLE. I went crazy of course and went with loadpath sails, but good dacron sails aren't cheap either.

Anyway... I think I agree candidly with the rest of the crew here... you might want to pass on this one. The Catalina 27 is a GREAT boat, and fortunately for YOU they are common. A good one will fetch a price as high as this, but this one doesn't really fit that description.

For the record a friend of mine JUST sold his 27 with a trailer, and inboard, wheel steering, tall rig, 1984 model... that was just in EXCELLENT shape (his father was the first owner, and handed it down to him)... it had new roller furling, new headsail, new cruising spinnaker with sock, upgraded LED lights down below... it was just a beautiful example of a finely crafted 27... he was able to sell it for $14k That's a pretty stellar price for a 27. It's just how the market is right now.
 
#17 ·
Have you looked at this one?
1982 S2 7.3 SAILBOAT, TRAILER

It's a better boat to begin with, sounds like it is in better condition, appears to be in the size range that you like, and is a lot less money.

There are also a couple of Catalina 25s in your price range that are of the last generation (a 1986 and 1988), which are the nicest version to get. It's difficult to tell from the ads what sort of condition they are in.

alex
 
#18 ·
I agree with the crew.
Used Boats are cheap. It's the doodads that cost.
I looked at used boat a couple of months ago. Everything Beautiful. Pulled it out of the water and the bottom had been bts by a trailer that had badly fitted pads.
Dodged a big bullet when I walked away.
Good luck with your search.
PS
I believe a good deal should be a good deal for both the seller and the buyer.
 
#19 ·
I agree with what everyone has said regarding your options. This seems very expensive for a Cat27 in Arizona. In fact, that is actually expensive for one up here. I could find you a ready to go C27 here for right about 10k.

That said, geography and what is available makes a BIG difference in price. I live in one of the extreme examples of this here in Alaska. We searched for years to find a good condition small keel boat or trailer sailer. Finally found one this summer that wasn't going to be a project boat. I wouldn't even think of posting what we paid here for it because the right coasters would have a fit. But, it was half the price of the next best option we had found in 3 years of looking.

I guess all I am saying is be very aware of the options and pricing in your own area. Obviously Alaska is at the far end of the curve as shipping isn't an option as gas would cost more than the value of the boat.
 
#20 ·
Sorry for the delay, work got in the way of sailing. I hate when that happens.

I should have mention I was going to offer like $5,000 since I think that's all it's worth. This guy can't even get anyone to go look at it since it's so far out and in a bad lake for sailing. It's in a lake called Canyon lake and it's surrounded by 500 ft sheer cliffs that come straight out of the lake, the water is like glass there :confused:

Actually 25's and 27's are pretty hard to find out here, there are currently three 30ft'rs in the mid teen price range for sale and a couple of 22ft'rs that are in the mid $6k range for asking prices.

I'm really not in a position to deal with a SoCal purchase and start the moving process.

However, I had WTB ad running on CL and got a e-mail this morning for another Catalina 27 where the owner just passed and they claim to have $22,000 in receipts with an asking price of $8,500 and it's at the right lake and floating in a slip. Supposedly in the last 3 years new bottom job, head sail on furler, main sail, winches, blocks, pulleys, lines, bimini's, marine batteries, flat screen TV, cushions, yada, yada. I'm seeing it on Friday afternoon.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
#21 ·
I've been to Canyon Lake, AZ - super fun for a ski boat and terrible for a sailboat.. A 14' sailboat maybe fun in the larger part of the lake, which isn't that large. But you're right, the real fun stretch through the canyon would be impossible and dangerous to sail.

Sounds like you should close this door.

Why do you want a 27 or 30 foot sailboat if you're going to be sailing on a lake in Arizona?
 
#24 · (Edited)
Why do you want a 27 or 30 foot sailboat if you're going to be sailing on a lake in Arizona?
yes, Canyon Lake is great for everything but sailing. I want something of that size so I can spend the weekend on it at Lake Pleasant and so when I go to California and charter a 36-40 ft'r I'm not totally intimidated by the size. I'll be doing that at least 3 times a year for a week at a time.

You are in Scottsdale, AZ, right? That is what your profile says. On a map it looks like a suburb of Phoenix.

There are 3 Catalina 25s listed there:
phoenix boats classifieds "catalina 25" - craigslist
Thanks for the link. One of those, the one already at Pleasant I missed because they spelled sailboat with two words and it did not get picked up in my search when I put "sailboat" in, lol..I have just swapped some e-mails with the owner and I'm heading up there tomorrow am.

The other one at Roosevelt Lake is a swing keep, not my first preference.

The last one that appears to be in someones back yard I also fired an e-mail off for to learn more. I guess I really didn't want something that wasn't already in the water so I wouldn't have to bother the seller with getting the boat up there, launching it, raising the mast and rigging it all up to take it on a shake down cruise. I know that's the sellers job, if they want to sell the boat, but I feel bad none-the-less if it didn't meet my expectations and I said, Thanks, not what I'm looking for." and he has to break it all down again.

I'll keep posting as I see them and review each one of these since there's now a link to them.
 
#23 ·
Canyon Lake is beautiful, but, as you said, sailing on it must be pretty difficult. Good luck in your search.

Shnool, I have to say I just cut and pasted your post onto a seperate Word document and saved on my desktop. When I'm ready to look for my next boat, I'll have your comments to study and be prepared. Excellent advice, thanks.

Mike
 
#26 ·
Shnool, I have to say I just cut and pasted your post onto a seperate Word document and saved on my desktop. When I'm ready to look for my next boat, I'll have your comments to study and be prepared. Excellent advice, thanks.
Mike
I am no expert, but I know what things cost to fix... and I've had to kind of sort through my own purchases and have learned the hard way on some of these under 10K beauties, what has taken the most time/effort to correct.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Try the following search in the boat section of Craigslist:
(sailboat | "sail boat" | catalina | hunter | *day | benet* | jeann* | S2)

Regarding the in-the-water versus on the trailer issue, honestly, many aspects of the walk-through can be done on land. If the interior is crap, or if the chainplates are corroded through, the bulkheads are leaky, the deck is squishy, etc., you'll see it. You can even inspect the sails on land. Then, if the boat still speaks to you, ask him/her for a sea trial. You can even offer them $100 earnest money - that is, money you're willing to pay for the opportunity to go for a sail. You'll lose the $100 if you walk away, but the seller knows you're not just trying to bum a ride.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Ok, I just got back from looking at this one this morning.

1988 25' Catalina sail boat with trailer

Owner is recently deceased, which is scary because I'm looking at another boat tomorrow morning where the story is the same. Arizona does have a lot of old people. This boat is titled to the estate and no family member is either willing or capable of telling me anything about the boat. Service history, etc. This really bothers me, especially at $8,900.

The marina manager showed me the boat and he knew nothing except that the owner was older and used the boat a fair amount and thought he was ex military.

I would say the boat was in good condition, lines looked good, sails appeared clean, with no tears and in good overall condition. All the standing and running rigging appeared in good condition and the deck had no soft spots that I could detect and felt solid. All the lifelines and stations appeared solid in good shape. The outboard was OLD and was pretty well covered with cobwebs and I'd didn't even think it was worth trying to start it, plus, there was no gas tank aboard.

Inside it was in pretty good shape, very presentable, no tears anywhere and nothing appeared broken or out of place. Two burner stove looked mint/un-used and the wood work was in a solid B/B+ condition. You really got the feeling nobody had been on this boat in months. Get this, the bilge was 100% dry, not a single droplet of water which is a good thing because I could not get the pump to engage while playing with the flipper/float.

I was surprised that the 27ft Catalina I was on a few days ago felt so much larger below deck, very surprised at this. Head room was about 6" less as I could stand in the 27 and could not in the 25, the 25 does have a pop-top.

I don't think there would be anyway I would pay close to the asking price for this boat and think something around $6-7k would be more realistic. I'm sure the outboard would need a tune-up and who knows what else. I have no doubt the boat is more than ready to be sailed and enjoyed and the boat does come with a very nice double axle trailer which I would not really use except for maintenance issues.

The biggest issue is no first hand intelligence from someone that knows the boat, there's a GPS device on board, AC unit, blue ray player and 16" flat screen and no paperwork or manuals for anything. For all I know the bottom is 10 years old or more.

I asked if the estate was "open to offers" and he said "yes, reasonable offers" and then threw in the "I have two other appts today to show the boat". He also offered 30 days free in the slip which is worth $250.

There's no doubt someone cared for the boat, it just may not have been in the last 6 months, or longer.
 
#29 ·
Get the boat hauled (or dive it) if you like it and want to see the bottom condition. You should haul any boat that you are considering, especially Catalinas. Read about the "Catalina Smile" to see why. I'm not trying to scare you away from them, they are excellent value boats, but signs of the smile should make you walk away.

The 27' Catalina has 2' longer cabin, 1' wider cabin (since it is not designed to be trailerable). That is a big difference in a small boat. Every foot matters on <30' boats.

The Catalina 25 is as fast (or slow, depending on how you look at it) as the 27, cheaper to buy sails for and maintain, simpler, and I think it sails a bit better (but I have lots of experience on the 25 and little on the 27). If you live in a light air region then you want the tall mast, it makes a big difference in boat speed in <10 knots of wind.

For price comparison a mid 80s Catalina 25 with new interior, new sails, new motor, new bottom paint, new running rigging, and other recent can be sold for about $7500-$8500 in Seattle (with no trailer). In this market I'd guess that boat could go for $6000-$7000 if the sails are in very good condition and it is otherwise as you described.

Understanding sail condition requires more than seeing that they are clean and have no tears. The shape of the sail and the remaining life of the cloth are both very important.
 
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