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  #41  
Old 10-24-2013
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Re: We Killed the Pacific Ocean

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Yawn! I counter the BS with science:
Mark: you didn't read the second article all the way through, did you?

I do not doubt that you have arrived at your conviction through thoughtful consideration of the facts as you know them, but man, help me understand your viewpoint; there must stories that are more compelling than this one.
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  #42  
Old 10-24-2013
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Re: We Killed the Pacific Ocean

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Originally Posted by unimacs View Post
FWIW the number and variety of birds and animals have increased in the area I grew up and the water is cleaner. It is possible to turn this stuff around.
Sidetracking a bit:

Another two data points: My experience in the Western US mountains and in the southern end of the Cumberland Plateau suggest that in both zones there are more forest mammals, and more wild mammals coexisting with humans in suburban areas; fewer number and varieties of forest birds, but lots of birds that thrive year 'round in human habitat, fewer number and variety of butterflies, fewer frogs, fewer bats. Oh, and fewer reef fish and coral in the Bahamas. More lionfish.

What I wonder is: how significant are the changes I'm seeing in the long-term big-picture? Are populations always this dynamic, or even more dynamic? I think most people tend to aggrandize the importance of events that happen in their own experience, i.e. their own particular time of living, so maybe what I'm perceiving as major trends away from normal are actually quite normal.

I read a book that described the return of life to northern North America after the last great Ice Age. The author asserted that the evolution of life is slower than the change in climate so at any time in the past, life has evolved to the climate of previous years but is not particularly well-suited for the present.

The concern is that the climate change pace and amplitude may get out of range for most life as we know it today to keep up. It's a probable problem sometime in the future, but middle-age people don't have to worry unless they care about future people, animals, or plants.

Last edited by jwing; 10-24-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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  #43  
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Re: We Killed the Pacific Ocean

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Originally Posted by Omatako View Post

So to the belief that we can collectively do something to reverse the destructive trend – for each one of us that cares there are 1,000 people who either couldn’t give a toss or are unable to. Those are not very positive odds.
My work in energy efficiency lead me to rubbing elbows with energy economists and that lead me to believe that collectively is the only way to reverse the destructive trend. But getting enough people to all think collectively requires central control of the breadth and depth that I want nothing to do with - to me the USA is already excessively controlling its citizens.

But I agree that working as individuals and small groups may be futile.

Once I was angry at some beavers who had felled several large aspen trees to get enough twigs to build a dam. The area looked like hell and the resulting pond inundated my favorite mountain bike trail through a wildflower meadow. Then I thought, why be angry, they are just beavers doing what beavers do. Well, I think homo sapiens are doing what homo sapiens do. And the world goes on. I'm glad I got to do so many things that future people won't be able to, but they will do things I can't even imagine.

Last edited by jwing; 10-24-2013 at 10:25 PM.
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  #44  
Old 10-25-2013
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Re: We Killed the Pacific Ocean

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My work in energy efficiency lead me to rubbing elbows with energy economists and that lead me to believe that collectively is the only way to reverse the destructive trend. But getting enough people to all think collectively requires central control of the breadth and depth that I want nothing to do with - to me the USA is already excessively controlling its citizens.

But I agree that working as individuals and small groups may be futile.

Once I was angry at some beavers who had felled several large aspen trees to get enough twigs to build a dam. The area looked like hell and the resulting pond inundated my favorite mountain bike trail through a wildflower meadow. Then I thought, why be angry, they are just beavers doing what beavers do. Well, I think homo sapiens are doing what homo sapiens do. And the world goes on. I'm glad I got to do so many things that future people won't be able to, but they will do things I can't even imagine.
I guess I'm not quite so pessimistic. It is possible to change behavior on a mass scale over time. Per capita energy use dropped in the late 70's. People do actually use seat belts today and a lot few people smoke than they used to. In some cases it can take decades.

European countries have made great strides in renewables and energy conservation. We should be embarrassed.
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Re: We Killed the Pacific Ocean

I got news for you MarkofSeaLife. Polution is the cause of Gobal Warming. Air polution by the exstream continued use of fossil fuels can and is changing the chemical make up of the air we breath; seen pictures out of major Chinesse cities on the TV new lately. The changing of the chemical make up of the air is allowing more radiation through to heat the earth and oceans. The earth is a huge heat sink that takes billions and billions of BTU's to change even 1 degree in tempature but we have been changeing the air for a hundred years now and now the earth is heating up.
Larger problem, if we don't stop this heating soon the tempature will continue to rise faster and faster. (Thermo class 101) We humans live in a rather narrow tempature range. The things we live on, i.e. food, live in about the same range. When the dural tempatures start exceeding that narrow range continuiously we die, our food dies, get it..
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  #46  
Old 10-25-2013
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Re: We Killed the Pacific Ocean

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Originally Posted by The Ol Man View Post
Polution is the cause of Gobal Warming.

Global warming or climate change? Gotta keep those terms straight otherwise the rubes will catch onto the fact that the whole issue is a political scam that uses emotion and shaky "science" to prove that Lincoln was right..."you can fool some of the people all of the time".

Air polution by the exstream continued use of fossil fuels can and is changing the chemical make up of the air we breath; seen pictures out of major Chinesse cities on the TV new lately.

The air we breathe is a mixture of gases. CO2 is a trace gas among a host of them that make up a miniscule part of the air we breathe. What you see in the pics of China are mostly colloids that will settle - like dust - a localized problem that can be handled with a local solution. Used to be widespread here...then we stopped manufacturing stuff and passed the Clean Air Act and enforced it and scrubbed most of that stuff out of our air.

The changing of the chemical make up of the air is allowing more radiation through to heat the earth and oceans. Huh? I think you need to revisit this opinion.

Larger problem, if we don't stop this heating soon the tempature will continue to rise faster and faster. (Thermo class 101) Is that the fourth law of thermo? Guess we never studied that one.

We humans live in a rather narrow tempature range. The things we live on, i.e. food, live in about the same range. When the dural tempatures start exceeding that narrow range continuiously we die, our food dies, get it.. Yeah...narrow temperature range. For example folks can only live in the Arctic at 0F or so...and in the deserts of Arabia at 120F or so...real narrow compared to absolute zero or the boiling point. But on the scale of anticipated/modeled changes or observed changes it's like cranking up the thermostat a bit.
Why do people travel to the warmest spots on this blue orb to vacation? There are a few people who enjoy activities requiring snow and ice but - for the most part - we all dream of sailing to tropical or near-tropical places. Must be because warm is bad!!!

Wouldn't it be great if the entire planet had a 365 day growing season? Then we could grow a LOT of the things we live on i.e. food.
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  #47  
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Re: We Killed the Pacific Ocean

Jwing and unimacs
It has been proven that we can change, you in your lifetime have seen it. Can we change it more and faster? Yes I belive it can be done. I have a feeling that mother nature is going to give us some assistance and soon. I assume that you have seen the picutres in the new out of China, Much more that level of polution and people will start dying, not just a few but hundreds perhaps thousands. Remember the furrer after the earth quakkes destoryed the schools in China? Think about it, if California had not push through air polution limits LA could be looking like that now too.
You mentioned solar power in Europe kicking our butts, How many wind farms have been built resently? Solar power plants are in the works too. Electric cars are being built and bought as fast as they build them. Major car companies have changed entire production lines to produce more efficent carbon base fuels vehicles and hybrids that are even better.
You are too young to remember WWII but after the shock of Pearl Harbor sunk in This country, good old U.S. of A. turned an entire national econome around in less than two years and became the biggest war materials producer in the world. We invented more, produced more and better than any country or nation in the world had ever seen or know
could be done. It wasn't easy or cheap, we did without a lot to make it happen but we did it.
This situation is like that in many ways. Many people before the war predicted it was coming, but as a whole the nation and its leadership would not listen. The problem is not ours, it's somewhere else, it isn't effecting me and mine,. ignore it, it's been that way for years, what do you expect me to do about it. Sound like 9/11 to you.
Well I see it this way, sooner than we think something major is going to happen and wake this country and the rest of the world up to the fact that something has got to be done. The more people that are doing the little things, proveing that it can be done the better off we will be, and the faster the bigger things will happen.
What are the little things? Some one in these posts mentioned candy wrapers made of mylar, and plastic bubble packaging. What would happen is several hundred people simply wrote a letter to the company stating I like your product but I will not buy it because it is packaged in a non biodegradable wrapper. Believe me, it will get some attention. If and they probably will send back a letter telling you that their packaging is that way to keep it fresher longer or something to that effect simply tell them that's all well and good but I will eat it in less that a week and a biodegradable wrapper will keep it fresh for a week but the mylar wrapper is still be here a hundred years from now, or something to that effect.
Remember these companies are in bissness to sell their products. They are constantly taking surveys to modify as necessary their product to meet the wants, likes, demands of the customers. Unsolisited comments have a big impact, more than 10 to 1, of company spondsered surveys, a few hundred letters bout the same thing is the equivilant of thousands.
Want another little thing. Not to long ago it was announced that standard incondesant light bluds were being phased out of production because small flurecent bulbs could be
produced that used markedly less power and lasted longer. (Everybody cheer) But they didn't bother to make a big deal out of the fact that these bulbs contain mercury and should not be put into the trash but should be safely, properly desposed of. OK, aaah where? The store that sold them didn't want them back, they didn't know what to do with them. City, county dumps would not take them, though they did for awhile before somebody informed them that they contained mercury and they were contaminating run off into streams, rivers, lakes and ground waters. Hey, thats our drinking water.
Well letters to city and county government asking to provide us with a place to dispose of these light blubs and you find a desposal or recycling center, its part of your job or we will replace you with some one who will. Polite, simple, little things done by many will and can make a difference.
Do the little things now and the bigger things will happen
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Re: We Killed the Pacific Ocean

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Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
Why do people travel to the warmest spots on this blue orb to vacation? There are a few people who enjoy activities requiring snow and ice but - for the most part - we all dream of sailing to tropical or near-tropical places. Must be because warm is bad!!!

Wouldn't it be great if the entire planet had a 365 day growing season? Then we could grow a LOT of the things we live on i.e. food.
We can now also grow massive hurricanes and typhoons that are the size of entire continents and wipe out all them sunny beaches in one fell swoop. Yay us!
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  #49  
Old 10-25-2013
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Re: We Killed the Pacific Ocean

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Originally Posted by The Ol Man View Post
What are the little things? Some one in these posts mentioned candy wrapers made of mylar, and plastic bubble packaging. What would happen is several hundred people simply wrote a letter to the company stating I like your product but I will not buy it because it is packaged in a non biodegradable wrapper. Believe me, it will get some attention. If and they probably will send back a letter telling you that their packaging is that way to keep it fresher longer or something to that effect simply tell them that's all well and good but I will eat it in less that a week and a biodegradable wrapper will keep it fresh for a week but the mylar wrapper is still be here a hundred years from now, or something to that effect.
It was not that long ago that the Peppermint Pattie and the Hersey's chocolate bar were sold in paper and foil packaging. I don;t remember getting any more or any less fresh tasting candybars back then. Heck, the Hersey's minutures are -still- wrapped in paper foil.

You are right about automobiles too, in my lifetime they started mandating seatbelts in the cars (took a law to make us actually use them) and people always said that "safety doesn't sell".. well, now you could not sell a car without 2 dozen airbags and a 5 star crash rating.

Same with Fuel economy. The days of gas guzzling V8s is about done. Not when Smaller engines can make similar amounts of power and still get good miliage. Even those few cars that still come with big V8s are getting better and better economy as the years go by.

In many cases it was done through economics. People did not start taking fuel efficent cars seriously (who wants to drive a Hyundai Excel again?) until gas hit 5 dollars a gallon. Suddenly mid-sized cars are getting 40mpg. (makes you think the potential had always been there).

We -can- save the earth.. many people want to, but to get everyone on board, you have to make it economically feasable (ie, an incentive) to do so.

Take trash for instance. My trash pickup is once a week in a HUGE can. I can throw anything in there that is not hazardous as long as the full can does not weigh more than 300 pounds. It is all taken out of my taxes and I have the same bill wether I throw out thousands of pounds worth of stuff of almost none at all.

What if we started weighing the garbage? You pay by what you throw out.. but recycling is free.... it does not need to be government mandated, it can be done through Waste Management (who picks up my trash) as a way to cut their own costs.
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Re: We Killed the Pacific Ocean

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Originally Posted by xymotic View Post
We can now also grow massive hurricanes and typhoons that are the size of entire continents and wipe out all them sunny beaches in one fell swoop. Yay us!
YGTBSM.

Nothing like a little hyperbole and outrageous claims to bolster one's arguments. Nothing damages an argument more than to contaminate with a**crockery.

"We" grow them? Heh.

"The size of entire continents"? Double heh.

Never had those things before the Industrial Revolution. Tell that to De Luna when you see him in the afterlife.

I can see those new multiple choice questions on middle school tests now - "What is responsible for the growth in size and intensity of cyclones?" A. "Plastics in the ocean"
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