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  #101  
Old 11-01-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by barefootnavigator View Post
Paulo, I respect your opinion but I firmly disagree, bigger is not always better or safer. You can run a thousand computer models but you will never be able to simulate real time cruising on a computer. In some cases a larger boat may be more comfortable and may be safer and in many it wont. This is fun to chat about but also pointless as there are millions of variables than have nothing to do with sea state when it comes to being safe at sea.
Ok, go circumnavigate or have a cruise on high latitudes on your 22ft boat, but please don't try to convince others that a 22ft boat (any) is as safe doing that then a properly prepared and suited 44 or 45ft. That can be dangerous. I find this discussion quite odd

Regards

Paulo
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  #102  
Old 11-01-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

As an interesting exercise, let's take the 1998 Sydney Hobart Race:

Now let's get a list of boats (and their length) that started the race, and a list of those that finished, and list of those lost at sea or abandon.

I am working on the list, but if you have one readily available, please post.

Last edited by casey1999; 11-01-2013 at 08:37 PM.
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  #103  
Old 11-01-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Um I Am right now and have been for years, Actually I'm in the yard doing work for a bit but will be back at it again we only went up to 50 degrees latitude this year but will go further next year. Funny thing is all the big boats around here drop the sails when it blows over 30 we never do and the fact that you would suggest that we are unsafe based on nothing more than the length is pretty laughable. Fyi back when I sailed my tiny Flicka a boat half the size of my current boat we happily sailed in 20 plus foot seas and full blown gales on multiple occasions and never once did we fall victim to all the data your computer states. Remember Paulo if you want to be a sailor you have to go to sea.
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  #104  
Old 11-01-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
....

But the question was if a bigger boat was safer and more seaworthy. And the answer is: Yes it is, assuming the skipper has enough experience to handle it.
In the original post I did not talk about seaworthy. Only safety. ANY boat that is not seaworthy is unsafe.

I also stated that 35 was now considered small. Yes, at this time Jill and I could handle a 35 footer, but it would be no "safer", than our 27.

I would consider going to sea in a 55+ foot boat as unsafe for Jill and I to take alone. I am talking about the possibility of bad weather. But that is us.

If the crew can not handle the boat in bad weather with all power out, it's an unsafe boat, NO MATTER WHAT THE DESIGN OR SIZE. And bigger boats get unsafe faster with fewer crew. In my reasoning...

I often hear (like at a party we were just at), "That a 27 must be unsafe! Better to get a 50 foot boat as it's much safer." What I was speaking to in the original post was just because a boat is bigger, does not make it safer.

Greg
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  #105  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by barefootnavigator View Post
Bigger does not mean higher hull speed unless you are talking about motoring all the way.
Sorry, but that is simply wrong...

In general, greater LWL translates to greater speed, whether under power or sail, in ideal conditions, or those less than ideal... In lighter airs, even a modest increase in speed through the water due to LWL can increase the apparent wind, which in turn results in an exponential increase in speed as a result in sailing in a 'stronger' breeze...

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Speed does not EVER equate to safety, safety does.
Wrong again...

Speed MAY afford greater safety, on occasion... Faster passage times equal less exposure to weather, speed can often make the difference between reaching a destination before darkness falls, or approaching weather overtakes you... To deny that speed can SOMETIMES be a tremendous advantage in terms of safety, is just silly..
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-01-2013 at 09:59 PM.
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  #106  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Hi Jon nice to meet you I'm terribly sorry but in the real world of voyaging you are wrong on all accounts. First off if a boat isn't sea worthy enough to handle a little bad weather you shouldn't leave the bay period. You say sometimes which is a very important statement. People who are rushing to beat the dark usually are the ones who make the worst mistakes. Here is a real world example in 6-8 knots of wind on my last sail I raced a 45' ish high performance cruising boat that coasts about 700 grand. I left them in the dust and they eventually dropped sail motored past and asked if I had an electric engine. In the real world my boat is faster than the big ones. I sail rings around large boats in light air all the time. When its really blowing those same big boats drop all sail and motor, I'm not sure why but if they don't have a 2000 mile range their boats are useless for long distance voyaging. So like I said before there are some advantages to larger boats and some to smaller but a sea worthy boat has much more to do with design and construction, followed by seamanship than it does with size. In the real world with proper maintenance and a seasoned skipper there is simply no difference. Then again who do you think pirates will chase, me in my little 22' cutter or the guy in the Halberg Rassey?
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by barefootnavigator View Post
Here is a real world example in 6-8 knots of wind on my last sail I raced a 45' ish high performance cruising boat that coasts about 700 grand. I left them in the dust and they eventually dropped sail motored past and asked if I had an electric engine. In the real world my boat is faster than the big ones. I sail rings around large boats in light air all the time.
Well, those other guys must have been really, REALLY crappy sailors... :-)
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  #108  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

But so am I I love big boats and small boats I love them all having happily sailed and owned the ugliest boat ever designed or built I have to say its sailing that I love more than the boats. Here is one more example just for fun. A good friend of mine was headed to Alaska on his 20' Flicka when he hit an uncharted reef. He sustained some damage to his boat and ego but a few hundred bucks in supplies and a few days in the yard and her was back on his way to Alaska.
Another friend just recently in his 52' half a million dollar cruising boat bit a charted reef and the boat went down in three minutes. He was one of the most respected and knowledgeable sailors in the region. So in this situation the smaller boat was safer. I don't know that I know anyone who has lost a boat at sea but I know many who have lost them to land
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  #109  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, those other guys must have been really, REALLY crappy sailors... :-)
John,

I know you from our other talks on other boards, and would LOVE to sit down and have a sundowner together some time! I respect your great experience and do not want to disagree, but on occasion, we have outrun much larger boats on our 27. NOT 60 footers!!

When we were in the yard in Napa Valley last March, a guy walked up and called us by name. We were greatly surprised to see a guy who had sort of blown us off in La Paz Mexico a few years ago. He had finished up a circumnavigation and didn't have time for us nubes. At any rate, in the yard, he went into this LONG apology for the way he treated us. He said that he had a very profound respect for us and our Nor'Sea. He asked if we remember when we departed the La Paz bay at about the same time he did. It was some place in the back recesses of my brain, but Jill remembered it. He related he did everything in his book to kick his Cheoy Lee 40+ in the pants, but we walked away from him. In light airs, we cook.

I had to snicker, Jill was doing the work that day, not me......

Waterline is important, but not always the deciding factor. Like EVERYTHING boating, there are so many tradeoffs.

Also, we have friends in there Nor'Sea that beat most of the fleet from the Galapagos to the Marquesas a few years ago as they had a Mainster sail to set. The cats and tris were standing still, monos not moving at all. From there ( Newsleters )web page;
ďAt last, 11:30 AM on May 12 we were anchor down in Hanavave Bay on Fatu Hiva, Marquesas after 27 days at sea.* Average days run of 112 nm per day.Ē

Greg
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  #110  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by barefootnavigator View Post
... Here is a real world example in 6-8 knots of wind on my last sail I raced a 45' ish high performance cruising boat that coasts about 700 grand. I left them in the dust and they eventually dropped sail motored past and asked if I had an electric engine. In the real world my boat is faster than the big ones. I sail rings around large boats in light air all the time. When its really blowing those same big boats drop all sail and motor, I'm not sure why but if they don't have a 2000 mile range their boats are useless for long distance voyaging. ...
I am a bit confused here. Do you sail a race boat? Sure with very light winds a very light small boat can be faster but 8K is already a lot of wind for a performance boat, I mean that performance 45 cruiser. Most modern 45 performance cruisers can make over 7K with 8k wind and your hull speed is about 6k, so unless it is deep downwind I don't see how that is possible.

What is that incredible 22ft fast cruiser boat that can beat a performance 45ft with light wind and most of all can beat it in strong winds?

A 45ft boat is useless for long distance voyaging? Do you think that your 22ft is better? I thought it was a racer

Regards

Paulo
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