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  #121  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Interresting post :-)
For many reasons i preffer my tiny racer, it can take alot of wind and its built like a tank.
Big boat are really nice and comfortable, cant compare to my little 7.5 racer but ...
As and old sailor said to me ... A safer vessel is the one that move ... A 300 ft vessel that is dead moving is very unsafe in a big storm :-/
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  #122  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

I liked my 37c's best also. But my wife loves the extra room and comfort of the 50. The question was about safety and I think bigger is better up to the point where you "need" power stuff. If you can't sail your boat in heavy conditions it's too big.
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  #123  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Greg- You're out there. Looked at your blog and it's clear you're doing it. Please don't have the penis envy thing ( bigger is better). People who look down at you have a stick up their butt. It's just like people -the outside don't count as much as what's inside and what they can do. Still, seem thread is coming to a consensus. Bigger is better (comfort, speed, supplies, ride, survivability etc.) but too big is unsafe ( can't single, can't run without power assist, expensive so when times hard may not be maintained etc.).
Where that too big point is varies. For some it's 30' when they won't even depend on the mechanical advantage of a winch. For others it's 50' as they are fit and have an "I can do it" attitude. For me it's low to mid forties as I think my 4'10" bride should be able to handle everything regardless of occurrence.
Believe Lynn and Larry are right-"you can't buy safety". Believe Barefoot and you are right small boats can be quite safe. But Paulo's points are undeniable.

Think the deal with big boats motoring reflects time constraints and attitude. In boat with proper design and SA/D size should have little or no impact on the decision to power or sail. Personally the sound of the engine drives me nuts and can't see why you would put up with all the sailboat issues if you are just going to power. Besides most all boats are faster with the rags up in any decent breeze. Just like it amazes me that people won't buy the best chain and anchor I'm amazed people won't get appropriate light and heavy air sails.
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  #124  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Greg- You're out there. Looked at your blog and it's clear you're doing it. Please don't have the penis envy thing ( bigger is better). People who look down at you have a stick up their butt. It's just like people -the outside don't count as much as what's inside and what they can do. Still, seem thread is coming to a consensus. Bigger is better (comfort, speed, supplies, ride, survivability etc.) but too big is unsafe ( can't single, can't run without power assist, expensive so when times hard may not be maintained etc.).
Where that too big point is varies. For some it's 30' when they won't even depend on the mechanical advantage of a winch. For others it's 50' as they are fit and have an "I can do it" attitude. For me it's low to mid forties as I think my 4'10" bride should be able to handle everything regardless of occurrence.
Believe Lynn and Larry are right-"you can't buy safety". Believe Barefoot and you are right small boats can be quite safe. But Paulo's points are undeniable.

Think the deal with big boats motoring reflects time constraints and attitude. In boat with proper design and SA/D size should have little or no impact on the decision to power or sail. Personally the sound of the engine drives me nuts and can't see why you would put up with all the sailboat issues if you are just going to power. Besides most all boats are faster with the rags up in any decent breeze. Just like it amazes me that people won't buy the best chain and anchor I'm amazed people won't get appropriate light and heavy air sails.
Outbound,

Have no fear about us catching the bigger is better attitude!

I started the thread only about size and safety. Jill and I are VERY safe aboard our 27! I KNOW Jill can bring me home, should I have a medical problem, by herself, even when the conditions go to crap. Just like you, that was/is one of our driving factors. Size of the boat is only ONE (1) factor in the safety of a boat. It seems a lot of people over look that.

I also did not bring up that when we finished up in Mexico, we came home going to weather at 55 MPH. And last March, we towed to Napa Valley for some wine, and cruised the San Francisco Bay & Delta for months. Saw the Americas Cup boats on the water. Then towed back here to Az. Now planning to tow to the New Orleans area next Feb. for Mardi Gras, then cruise on over to the Tampa Fla. area and haul back out just at hurricane season. Do that with a 50 footer!

Greg
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  #125  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delezynski View Post
..
I started the thread only about size and safety. ...

I also did not bring up that when we finished up in Mexico, we came home going to weather at 55 MPH. And last March, we towed to Napa Valley for some wine, and cruised the San Francisco Bay & Delta for months. Saw the Americas Cup boats on the water. Then towed back here to Az. Now planning to tow to the New Orleans area next Feb. for Mardi Gras, then cruise on over to the Tampa Fla. area and haul back out just at hurricane season. Do that with a 50 footer!

Greg
And what as that to do with being a bigger boat safer than a smaller boat?

Nobody says that your boat is not the perfect boat for you and it is perfectly safe for the type of cruising you do. If we were considering a circumnavigation crossing the big austral desert at 50º latitude I would say that it was not a safe boat to do that and a bigger boat would be required if safety was taken seriously. Seaworthiness is not an absolute term. A boat can be seaworthy in some conditions but not in others.

As a good example in what regards size and seaworthiness regarding the same type of boat sailed by a solo sailor we can look at solo racing boats and to a mini-class racer (22ft) a 40class racer and an Open60 class racer. All those boats are very seaworthy boats for its size and all designed to be solo sailed and they are so easy regarding an experienced sailor that even a 60ft boat can be sailed solo non stop around the planet.

If you said to a mini racer skipper that is boat is as seaworthy as an Open 60 boat he would think you were not serious about the question and that you were joking. There is no possible comparison.

Even in what regards 40class racers (hugely seaworthy for a 40ft boat) I remember that, when the boat was new, the sailors and designers had some doubts about if the boat would be suited to race solo on high latitudes. Now, after having tried they consider it is and the boat is also used on circumnavigation races but contrary to the Open 60's if there is a big storm going on they delay the departure to increase the safety margin.

Regards

Paulo
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  #126  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
And what as that to do with being a bigger boat safer than a smaller boat?

Nobody says that your boat is not the perfect boat for you and it is perfectly safe for the type of cruising you do. If we were considering a circumnavigation crossing the big austral desert at 50º latitude I would say that it was not a safe boat to do that and a bigger boat would be required if safety was taken seriously. Seaworthiness is not an absolute term. A boat can be seaworthy in some conditions but not in others

.....SNIP......

Even in what regards 40class racers (hugely seaworthy for a 40ft boat) I remember that, when the boat was new, the sailors and designers had some doubts about if the boat would be suited to race solo on high latitudes. Now, after having tried they consider it is and the boat is also used on circumnavigation races but contrary to the Open 60's if there is a big storm going on they delay the departure to increase the safety margin.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,

My statements about going to weather at 55 have nothing to do with safety. I was only responding to the post.

I need to repeat, I am talking about cruising and the "normal" cruising crew. NOT RACERS!!!!!!!!! NOT technical specifications.

As to the big water, Nor'Sea's have made many circumnavigations and literally hundreds of Atlantic and Pacific crossings. As a quick look, see the Zacko's web site, they crossed the Pacific from Spain, then through the Panama canal, then out through the South Pacific, they are now back in Spain; Ellen and Ed sail around the world in their NorSea 27 Entr'acte .

MY BOAT WITH Jill and I AS CREW IS SAFER THAN A 60 FOOT BOAT WITH Jill and I AS CREW! Even if I could handle the gear if the power was lost, Jill, the only other crew could NOT. THAT WOULD BE AN UNSAFE CONDITION.

Please give this up. I am NOT trying to convince you to get a small boat. And Jill and I are very happy with our boat, to date. As I said, we talk about it a couple time a year, and so far, plan to stay with it. You are happy with your boat, GREAT! We are happy with ours.

That is the GREAT thing about cruising! We are each captain of our own boat and as such take the responsibility for our own decisions and actions.


Greg
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  #127  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
As a good example in what regards size and seaworthiness regarding the same type of boat sailed by a solo sailor we can look at solo racing boats and to a mini-class racer (22ft) a 40class racer and an Open60 class racer. All those boats are very seaworthy boats for its size and all designed to be solo sailed and they are so easy regarding an experienced sailor that even a 60ft boat can be sailed solo non stop around the planet.

If you said to a mini racer skipper that is boat is as seaworthy as an Open 60 boat he would think you were not serious about the question and that you were joking. There is no possible comparison.
Judging by the number of dismastings , collisions, breakdowns and what have you, the boats suffer in the Vendee, I'm not sure how seaworthy they really are. It can be forgiven because they are race boats and racers tend to push it to the edge. On the other hand I'm not sure open 60s are a good example of how much safer larger boats are.
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  #128  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by Jabberwock View Post
Judging by the number of dismastings , collisions, breakdowns and what have you, the boats suffer in the Vendee, I'm not sure how seaworthy they really are. It can be forgiven because they are race boats and racers tend to push it to the edge. On the other hand I'm not sure open 60s are a good example of how much safer larger boats are.
I was just comparing what is comparable: The same type of boat specially designed for solo sailing, one with 22ft, the other with 40ft and another with 60ft. The comparison regards only those types of boats and the relative seaworthiness between them.

We could do the same exercise comparing the relative seaworthiness of other similar typed class of boats. We can look for instance to Benetau Oceanis series and compare the blue-water ability (and safety on those conditions) of an Oceanis 31 and the one of an Oceanis 45, or go to the First series and compare the Blue water ability (and safety on those conditions) of a First 25 and a First 40.

Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU

This is so obvious that the discussion makes no sense.

Why I am persisting? Because it is dangerous to assume that for the same type of boat size has nothing to do with safety.

That is just plain wrong and assuming a boat can be handle by his crew, bigger boats with the same type are more seaworthy and safer than smaller boats.

Ignoring this can lead to overconfidence and to dangerous situations.

Regards

Paulo
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  #129  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I was just comparing what is comparable: The same type of boat specially designed for solo sailing, one with 22ft, the other with 40ft and another with 60ft. The comparison regards only those types of boats and the relative seaworthiness between them.
What would be interesting is if one could compile statistics between the three classes to actually come to some conclusion backed by the evidence. Perhaps boats disabled per distance sailed or something of that nature.
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  #130  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

I read somewhere a while back that the Nor'sea 27 has more circumnavigations than any other sailboat ever built go figure...
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