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  #141  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
How do you know the experience of the Marine Flower 2 Skipper?

Even the designers of the Sundeer 64 say they now do not feel comfortable handling such a boat and now have designed a similar power boat:

From:

DashewOffshore.com - the serious cruising sailor's website
This quote from the Dashew's;

"But we've past the point where we were comfortable handling this much sail by ourselves, and we did not want to take crew. The FPB was the next step for us, and perhaps for others facing the same dilemma.

When we started this new project Linda was all for it. Steve, on the other hand, felt he was being forced in this direction by the march of time. At 62 years and counting, it was no longer prudent for the two of us to cross oceans, dealing with the spinnakers and reachers that are part of our sailing equation."
If you read my post I said that the owner of the Marine Flower 2 was inexperienced, AT LEAST WITH THAT BOAT. The rescue was in 1994, the same year the Sundeer 60 and 64 were first available. Previously all Sundeer and Deerfoot boats were custom designed and built, mostly in aluminum. As far as Marine Flower being "caught" by a hurricane that moved erratically, there are certain ocean passages that are best not attempted during hurricane season - in any boat.

The Dashews are not your average sailors. Don't paint a picture of them moving to power because of their frailty. They were racers and record holders racing catamarans offshore before the Deerfoot/Sundeer time period. They aren't content loafing along. I first met them when they passed through Victoria in 1991 or 1992 as they were coming down from Alaska in their little 67' ketch, the original Sundeer - quite a boat. Their only concession to gadgets was 2 electric winches, and furlers of course. They could easily handle the boat in any conditions they encountered in over 50,000 miles of cruising. Then came Beowolf, their 77' ketch. Is there safety in size? Damn right when you can consistently do 300+ mile days offshore. With today's electronics it is easy to track lows and at these speeds stay out of their way.

Here's a link to the Dashews sailing Beowolf in the southern ocean at 27 knots - as a couple. Notice the stability at speed when Linda is in the galley.

Their style of cruising under sail was definitely performance cruising.

Interesting point that is a bit off topic - their powerboats are less expensive per mile cruised than the sailboats when fuel cost is compared to sail and rigging replacements.

Are large boats safer? Many factors are involved. Better rested and fed on larger boats because of their more stable motion. Faster due to waterline length all else being equal. A large boat doesn't have to be dependent on electrical gadgets. A long, lean boat like a Sundeer is easily driven. Smaller boats can certainly cruise far and wide if well designed and built, but they won't outrun much weather and can't carry the load the larger ones can.

An interesting comparison can be made between the Sundeer 60 and the Outbound 46. The Sundeer 60 is 6" wider than the Outbound, has 19' more waterline, and has only 240 sq feet more sail area. Load has less effect on the Sundeer - 2900 lbs are required to lower the Sundeer 1" compared to the Outbound at 1940 lbs/inch. The Sundeer 60 is about 9,000 lbs heavier. The Sundeer 60 has a hull speed almost 2 knots faster than the Outbound. Not to criticize the Outbound, an awesome boat. The Nor'Sea 27 is a great boat as well, definitely not your average 27'er.

Here are 2 pics of Beowolf sailing the way the Dashews cruised. Not your average sailors at retirement age.
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Sailing, safety, & size-beospin8.jpg   Sailing, safety, & size-beospin5.jpg  
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Last edited by mitiempo; 11-02-2013 at 06:02 PM.
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  #142  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Calm down, I know Larry Pardey at least is reputation. I am not saying that I am not a better sailor than Larry Pardey. I said that in my opinion that guy that crossed the Atlantic on a beach cat is probably a bet sailor than Larry Pardey. Now do you think that Larry Pardey is the better sailor in the world? Do you know that guy that crossed the Atlantic in a cat? How do you can have an opinion if you don't know that guy or his experience?

At least I know both. It seems that at least I am a bit more informed than you

How am I disparaging you or your friends? Just because I justifiably disagree with your opinions, namely about size and safety in boat?

Regards

Paulo
I ask apology if I mistook your words.

I see sailing across the ocean in an open beach cat as a "stunt". In the same category as taking an inflatable across the ocean. It's not cruising as I see it. You are correct, I do not know the guy who sailed the beach cat. BUT, that is a FAR different than the cruising Larry has accomplished during his life.

I see the open 60s and the last Americas Cup boats as racers, and not cruising boats and not even close to what any of us will be using. Jill and I met with Gary Jobson at the Oakland Yacht Club not long before the races. When asked what technology/parts he thought would trickle down to our cruising boats, he thought for a bit and said, "Maybe some of the radio tec, but nothing else."

Greg
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  #143  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Jon don't take me wrong but I find funny that when Americans talk about the boat that has made more circumnavigations they always talk about American boats. Sailing is a lot more popular in Europe and there are a lot more sailors in Europe. Do you think that French, Germans, British, Dutch, Swedish, Danes Spanish or even Portuguese when circumnavigate they do that in American boats?

More, on the last 10 years probably were made more circumnavigations than on all decades but together. Do you think that on the last 10 years the Tayanas or Vaillants were the boats more used, even by Americans?

I don't know and certainly they are not the boats more suited for it but if I would bet on a brand I would say Beneteau, Bavaria or Jeanneau, just because they are the boats that have been made in great number and the ones you can find in Europe and in the States.

Regards

Paulo
I don't disagree, I would certainly bet the most popular BRAND to go around would be one of those you've mentioned...

However, I was referring to specific boats, or models... The problem with specifying a particular design with builders like Beneteau, is that they're coming out with new models practically every year...

No question, most of us here tend to think in terms of what we Americans sail... SAIL magazine is just out with a feature on the "Top 12 Bluewater Cruisers", based solely upon the popularity of entries in all the WCC Rallies over the past 5 years... In order, they are:

Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 54DS
JeaneauSun Odyssey 49
Amel Super maramu 53
Hallberg Rassy 42 & 42FF
Amel 54
Hylas 54
Beneteau 57
Oyster 56
Lagoon 440
Bavaria 42 Beneteau
Oceanis 473

Average size of this fleet is 49.5

Average price? $481K

So, what would be your guess as to the single model that has gone around the most?

Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-02-2013 at 06:51 PM.
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  #144  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delezynski View Post
I ask apology if I mistook your words.

I see sailing across the ocean in an open beach cat as a "stunt". In the same category as taking an inflatable across the ocean. It's not cruising as I see it. You are correct, I do not know the guy who sailed the beach cat. BUT, that is a FAR different than the cruising Larry has accomplished during his life.

...

Greg
Not a problem Geg, you are a nice guy. Yes I agree, i's different but I has not talking (only) about cruising in what regards great sailors. I talked about that guy being a great sailor. Great sailors are not only cruisers but also (and mostly) professional ones.

Anyway that does not matter. You are right, it is a stunt and I utilized is example just to show that size matters. It is a stunt to cross the Atlantic solo on a 6m cat but not a stunt to cross it on a 45ft cruising cat and it is not a stunt because it is safer. Size matters

Regards

Paulo
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  #145  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Are you serious? That is ridiculous and show that you don't know of what you are talking about regarding these particular boats. If you have any doubt ask to a mini class skipper and we will take away any doubt you have.
Don't know what I'm talking about? I never made any claims one way or the the other. But I guess your knee jerk mind failed to notice that.

In any case it's possible that certain inherent safety advantages the bigger boat has could possibly be offset by the dangers of higher speed, reduced ability to handle the bigger boat easily or higher degree of difficultly in engineering the larger boat. There were three collisions in the first 15 days of the last Vendee. In 2008-2009 19 boats did not finish out of 30 boats due to various failures.

But again when you are just looking at one set of numbers it doesn't tell you anything. Also, all this comparison might tell you is something about the safety of relatively lightly built single handed ocean racing boats.
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  #146  
Old 11-02-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...
So, what would be your guess as to the single model that has gone around the most?
I really don't know. As you say while American models tend to have lasted many years, specially the old ones, European models, even the old ones were replaced much more frequently. Regarding single European models probably the OVNI 43/435 is high in the scale as well as the Amel Maramu/Super Maramu. I knew once a guy with a OVNI 43 that had circumnavigated 3 times WITH THE SAME BOAT. That should be some kind of record.

Regards

Paulo
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  #147  
Old 11-03-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by Jabberwock View Post
.. On the other hand I'm not sure open 60s are a good example of how much safer larger boats are......
What would be interesting is if one could compile statistics between the three classes to actually come to some conclusion backed by the evidence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwock View Post
Don't know what I'm talking about? I never made any claims one way or the the other. But I guess your knee jerk mind failed to notice that.

In any case it's possible that certain inherent safety advantages the bigger boat has could possibly be offset by the dangers of higher speed, reduced ability to handle the bigger boat easily or higher degree of difficultly in engineering the larger boat. ....

But again when you are just looking at one set of numbers it doesn't tell you anything. ..
Sometimes I get lucky. I have said that evidently a big solo racer like an Open 60 would be much safer than a Mini class racer and that anyone that know something about these boats, particularly the ones that sail them, would have any doubt about that and just by accident a very experienced solo sailor had said just that yesterday.

The big Jaques Fabre Transat has been postponed a day (50k winds) and at a certain point on this video about that (min 1.08) a very experienced professional solo sailor, talking about facing bad weather is saying precisely that, talking not about mini class racers but about much bigger 40class racers versus 60class racers and 50ft multihulls versus 70ft multihulls.

On a more textual translation and than the one offered on the video he is sayng:

"They are all blue water racing boats with very experienced crews even if some are amateurs. Evidently the bigger the boat the safer we can consider we will be"


BRE - Briefing tempo - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 por TransatJacquesVabre

as I have said, that is evident.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-03-2013 at 07:11 AM.
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  #148  
Old 11-03-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Brian you make very valid points. Paulo speaks to racing and high performance cruising but I think Greg is asking about us mere mortal cruisers. Still, Steve in his skinny long boats can routinely do 300 m/ d, I can expect the occasional 200+m/ d but Greg is probably doing 100-150m/d. Less days at sea=greater safety. Steve has to dock his boat and service it on occasion. I think one of the great joys of cruising is hanging out in new places. They seem to charge for everything by the foot. Don't care much about beam. I can sneak through the Panama Canal without extra line handlers for example. I can haul in any decent marina. I can afford a day or two in a slip for a break. But I'm still big enough for a mechanics room with a splendid to do my wash,and AC and water maker and generator and adequate tankage. Big part of cruising is quality of life. Comfy happy crew= good crew dynamics=good decisions= safety. Hearing about macho pros making BFS holds little interest to me as a average Joe.
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  #149  
Old 11-03-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Brian you make very valid points. Paulo speaks to racing and high performance cruising ....
I speak generally and give particular examples, as all examples have to be.

What is true for the Beneteau Oceanis line is true for solo racing boats and any kind of boat: If a boat can be handled by the crew in all conditions, a bigger same type of boat is safer. That is as evident regarding race solo boats or any kind of cruising boat.

That does nor mean that a smaller boat is not perfectly safe under a given set of circumstances and sea conditions, but there is not a single small sailboat (and I am talking as small to boats till 80ft or even more) that can be safe in all sea conditions. Smaller ones (same type) start to be unsafe with much less demanding conditions and on hurricane conditions even the bigger ones are not safe or have not and adequate safety margin.

Regarding the same type of boat there is a huge difference in the conditions that are safe for a 27ft boat and for a 45ft boat. This is all evident and regards directly the subject of this thread: Size matters to safety.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-03-2013 at 09:29 AM.
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Sometimes I get lucky. I have said that evidently a big solo racer like an Open 60 would be much safer than a Mini class racer and that anyone that know something about these boats, particularly the ones that sail them, would have any doubt about that and just by accident a very experienced solo sailor had said just that yesterday.

The big Jaques Fabre Transat has been postponed a day (50k winds) and at a certain point on this video about that (min 1.08) a very experienced professional solo sailor, talking about facing bad weather is saying precisely that, talking not about mini class racers but about much bigger 40class racers versus 60class racers and 50ft multihulls versus 70ft multihulls.

On a more textual translation and than the one offered on the video he is sayng:

"They are all blue water racing boats with very experienced crews even if some are amateurs. Evidently the bigger the boat the safer we can consider we will be"


BRE - Briefing tempo - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 por TransatJacquesVabre

as I have said, that is evident.

Regards

Paulo
Fist off your translation is somewhat different from the one given. I'll assume for the sake of argument yours is more correct.

I find the position that one person's opinion however experienced he is, should negate the need for real statistical data somewhat dubious. That's not to say he is wrong. I am merely pointing out that intuition and anecdotal evidence has often been proven to be incorrect. I don't want to beat a dead horse here and I'm not trying to convince you of anything. All I'm saying is I trust the scientific method much more than "Jack the sailing god on you-tube said it, so now we must take it as fact."

I have no vested interest in proving small boats are safer and in fact I'm not trying to do so. However, I am still wondering if in SOME situations that may be the case. I haven't seen anything yet that provides a definitive answer......Peace .
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