Sailing, safety, & size - Page 17 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree77Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #161  
Old 11-03-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
ob - I think you'll find it's just the opposite…color increases life expectancy. (Note that furling foresails usually have a dark leach. The leach is the only part of the sail exposed when furled so exposure to sun when furled has less deleterious effect.)

Remember that white colored objects reflect NO light…and colored objects reflect light with the wavelength of the color observed. So the lighter the color of an object the more light (energy) is absorbed. It's the energy of the light's waves being absorbed (rather than reflected) that breaks down the fabric and robs it of its strength.
Mad is right. I used to teach that to kids, seriously White is not a color but the entire spectrum of wave bands our eyes can detect. Black is not a color either but the absence of radiation, meaning that a black object absorbs all radiation that your eyes can see while a white one reflects all. The reason why plats are green is because they absorb the red radiation (photosynthesis) and what is left is yellow and blue that together gives green.

The problem with the sails is not visible radiation but UV. The tissue that is used to protect the genoa is resistant to UV and can have any color. Mine is has a very light grey.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #162  
Old 11-03-2013
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 37
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Oregonian is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Barefootnavigator has said “…if you have any (experience) please let us know…” I have 160,000+ miles on over 150 sailboat. Sailing is what I do. From the very beginning of this thread I could have said that I am in the “size does not matter” camp. As has been very well stated by Barefootnavigator, Deleznski, and jabberwock , there is much more to safety than boat size. I disagree with PCP strongly, but I usually do, and this is just another example of his opinion vs mine. For the most part he is usually guilty of gross exaggerations.
Personally, I prefer ocean sailing on the smaller boats. I have more control of the boat and this clearly equates to safety for me.
One of my 10,000 stories involves a sister ship of a frequent contributor to this thread. I apologize but I am not going to name him. He has one of the bigger boats. While sailing close by, the boat in question was hit by a whale.
It suffered serious damage but did make it to Seattle without taking on any serious water. The whale was also bloodied, unfortunately. Soon after this accident, the boat was repaired and sold. I personally feel that the smaller boat that I was on, which was also heavier built, would not have sustained such damage. This little story says very little, but it is just one example of a much newer, more modern and larger boat not having any additional safety built into it.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to Oregonian For This Useful Post:
Delezynski (11-04-2013)
  #163  
Old 11-03-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
.. I disagree with PCP strongly, but I usually do, and this is just another example of his opinion vs mine. For the most part he is usually guilty of gross exaggerations.
...
I did not remember who you were but since you accuse me of "gross exaggerations" I give myself the trouble to have a look at your posts to try to remember of what you were talking about and ...yes, of course I remember now: you are the one in love with your Westsail 32.

The one that says that out sails with the W32 a Vailant 40, that says that a 80 years old Atkin 36 can do “6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28 degrees, in difficult conditions”.

That says that Bob Perry regarding the Tayana 37 “got the shape wrong. As he has done on other designs” and that the Tayana 37 “ it is slower than the 80 year old Alajuela 38 design” and believes that "if Perry and JeffH actually did a little long distance voyaging, they might word their praise of the modern designs a little differently”"Jeff H has been a huge source of that misinformation as have many others. This is an open forum and the people asking questions deserve honest answers. It is a violation of this forum's rules to push some other agenda as Jeff H has done."

The best is yet to come:

You say also:

“If my choices were a Valiant 32, Tashiba 31, Brent Swain 31, Baba 30, or Islander 28, I would choose the Brent Swain 31. And I have no doubt that I could sail it - in all directions - equal to or faster than all the other boats mentioned… I know the math.”.....

and say:

"The most ridiculous of the comments? … by Outbound, “ability to point and make a good days run in light/moderate air remain failings of most full keeled boats. …A heavier full keeled boat is sailed differently in light air than a lighter fin keeled boat. It can get the job done just as well….There is simply no over-riding benefit to crossing an ocean, Down wind or Upwind, in light wind, or heavy air, on a fin keeled, or light weight, ocean voyaging, live-aboard, cruising sailboat......

The accompanying photos show a W-32 off the coast of Washington. The TRUE wind is approximately 3.1k. Does anyone here really believe that a Farr 38, Elan, or Figaro 35 would be able to do a lot better? Myth #1) The W-32 can’t point. In fact, under exactly identical conditions, it will point equal to the average 30’ racer cruiser. Myth #2) The W-32 can’t run. In fact it runs faster than most 36’ racer cruisers.

This forum has the potential to be a great source of information. It is important to keep the information accurate. I think a little more policing is in order here."

All in blue are quotes from Oregonian, where he shows his knowledge about sailboats and design in a very accurate and never exaggerated way.

Well, I try to be accurate but if sometimes I exaggerate I can assure all and particularly Oregonian that I have no intention, as I believe it is the case with him. He was however an excuse: Love makes us blind.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 11-04-2013 at 11:03 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #164  
Old 11-04-2013
Jabberwock's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Russia
Posts: 19
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Jabberwock is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delezynski View Post
Jobberwock,

Thank you, my point exactly. I am not, and have not talked about the technical aspects of specific craft. I am NOT saying that every one should sail a boat that is XX foot long, big or small. I am not saying size takes no part in the equation. BUT I AM saying it is only part of the safety equation......
Greg, I just find it hard to come up with solid answers to questions like this based on isolated opinions. Also such answers rarely apply to all circumstances. I know I feel more comfortable handling a smaller boat when on my own or with one other person, but again that's just my take. There are also safety factors when maneuvering in a marina and docking and I would think smaller boats would tend to have the edge there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don0190 View Post
There is a lot more to boating than "safety" to which a larger boat is so much better than a small boat.
That depends on where you are and what you are trying to do. I'm currently in Russia. I moved here at the beginning of the year. I had a 37' sloop which I originally planned on bringing here but I ended up selling instead. This is not a particularly large boat by American standards BUT it's too big for me here. The marinas here are tiny and cost of a berthing is extremely high. Being able to take my boat out of the water and store it easily is of great benefit.

As an example out of the 5 marinas I visited (most of which could only loosely be called a marinas) my 37 was the largest boat I saw. This was during March so things may be different at other times of the year when more boats are in the water but I think the point is still valid. Even the boats I saw on stands were smaller.

Then there are the issues of draft, bridge clearance, transport over land etc. Also I think almost everyone agrees that recurring costs are much higher on larger boats. While I'm sure your larger boat has many advantages I would hesitate the say "to which a larger boat is so much better than a small boat". I mean a clearly a smaller boat can do SOME things better.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #165  
Old 11-04-2013
Delezynski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Currently in Az. and trailer to various places.
Posts: 249
Thanks: 10
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 1
Delezynski is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

A matter of numbers!!

Last night, Jill and I had dinner at a restaurant/Jazz club. Ed & Ellen Zacko were there playing in the session. They are back in the USA from Spain. They sailed from the US to the Med a few times over the years, then back across, through the Panama Canal (I posted a Youtube of there trip with MrJohn), then on out through the South Pacific, They shipped their boat to France, did the canals and are now back in Seville Spain. I say this as they have a bit of experience sailing a Nor'Sea and MrJohn is a larger (40 +/- boat).

During a break we were talking about the subject. He said that John, (on MrJohn) thought safety is a matter of numbers. 10 being the best, 0 the bottom.

IF, you have sailor that is a 10, and you have a boat that is a 10 it can do most anything
IF, you have sailor that is a 10, you can have a boat that is a 5 and still go most any place.
IF, you have sailor that is a 5 and a boat that is a 5, that's a recipe for trouble.

In my mind, my thoughts, the numbers are constantly changing. You might be a #10 sailor when you are 30 or 40~ years old. At 55 to 60, you are no longer a 10. No matter what my mind might try telling me, the old body just ain't the same.

A boat might be a 10 when you depart the dock, but as the cruise progress, it may drop in number.

On the way home my mind was going over this. The bigger (say 55+ foot) boat may start out with this #10. Then you put a value on each item or system. So, waterline is part of the total number. How the craft was designed AND built is part of that number. So is that electric winch, (the electric is part of the total for the winch and the manual is part of that number). The rigging is part and so on as you like.

My thought is that while a large well designed and built boat, say 18 to 20 meter (~65 foot) boat leaves the dock a #10.

As it goes along, with a lot of systems, if one breaks down, that #10 can fall rapidly. If for instance electric is used for sails & anchoring, and you loose electric, the numbers fall quickly and the boat fast becomes a 5.

The larger the boat and/or the more complex, the faster the number can drop.

If a smaller boat, rated as, say an 8 or 9 due to shorter water line, leaves the dock, but does not have electric sail handling or winches as they are not needed, there is just not that much to lower that number.

Also, we add to that the crew scale. A crew departs the dock as a #10, but after some time, that number may drop. Break an arm and you are instantly down to a 3 or 4. Fatigue would be in this part of the equation. It has been very rare that I have become overly tried as our boat will heave-to very easy and we take a break to rest up.

Any way, just another way to look at this. I think more logical.

Greg
__________________
Greg & Jill Delezynski
Nor'Sea 27, Guenevere
Home page -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Youtube page -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #166  
Old 11-04-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delezynski View Post
A matter of numbers!!

Last night, Jill and I had dinner at a restaurant/Jazz club. Ed & Ellen Zacko were there playing in the session. They are back in the USA from Spain. They sailed from the US to the Med a few times over the years, then back across, through the Panama Canal (I posted a Youtube of there trip with MrJohn), then on out through the South Pacific, They shipped their boat to France, did the canals and are now back in Seville Spain. I say this as they have a bit of experience sailing a Nor'Sea and MrJohn is a larger (40 +/- boat).

During a break we were talking about the subject. He said that John, (on MrJohn) thought safety is a matter of numbers. 10 being the best, 0 the bottom.

IF, you have sailor that is a 10, and you have a boat that is a 10 it can do most anything
IF, you have sailor that is a 10, you can have a boat that is a 5 and still go most any place.
IF, you have sailor that is a 5 and a boat that is a 5, that's a recipe for trouble.

In my mind, my thoughts, the numbers are constantly changing. You might be a #10 sailor when you are 30 or 40~ years old. At 55 to 60, you are no longer a 10. No matter what my mind might try telling me, the old body just ain't the same.

...
Greg
Greg I agree with what your friend said between the interaction of the boat and the skipper in what regards safety and seaworthiness not so much with your own conclusions.

Let's take for example that story about a sailor with 55 to 60 not being a 10 and let's look for instance to Francis Joyon that is 57 years old:

Look at him:





Only this year he has beaten two major absolute solo records and that boat of his is much more difficult to sail that any 60ft cruising monohull in the market...and he is not cruising the boat but racing.

I could give you more examples of top sailors with about that age. If one is still reasonably fit experience and knowledge counts a lot more than physical performance and power. Look for instance to the vendee Globe, the thoughest sail race and you will see that almost all are over 40 with many over 50 years old.

Regarding boats each boat is a case but you are exaggerating with that story of a bigger boat to start with 10 and finishing with 5.

Of course there are many types of boats and many even if could safely voyage offhsore where not designed thinking about that.

Take one of those boats that are designed with voyage in mind and that is not certainly true. Think for instance on a Allures 45 or 51, on a Boreal 44, 47 or 50, on an OVNI 445 or 495 , on a Nordship 43, on a Halberg Rassy 43 or 48, on a Najad 440 or 460, on an Amel 55, on a x-50 or in a Oyster 575 and I am sure, as their owners and designers will certainly be, that the boat can cross the Atlatic and if not arrive on the other side of the pond with a 10, they will arrive with a 9.









However I agree that generally it is needed more experience and knowledge for sailing a bigger boat solo and without that experience, as your friend says, if you have a 10 sailboat and a 5 skipper, the boat can go almost anywhere, but if you have a 10 sailboat and a 2 or 3 skipper, than it is a recipe that can lead to disaster.

Unfortunately there are a lot of 2/3 value skippers buying 10 or near 10 value big boats and sailing away with them, some even circumnavigating thinking they are safe because they have a safe boat.

Well, they can be lucky and have time to learn along the way or escape really bad weather altogether or they can not be that lucky and they will be in trouble.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #167  
Old 11-04-2013
just ducky
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 650
Thanks: 3
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Don0190 is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Unfortunately there are a lot of 2/3 value skippers buying 10 or near 10 value big boats and sailing away with them, some even circumnavigating thinking they are safe because they have a safe boat.
Probably only really a problem if the skipper thinks they are a 6+.

I'm probably at least a 5 skipper, but my mind am only a 3 and base most of my decisions on this.
__________________
Don't blow air up my rear, be useful and blow it at the sails!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #168  
Old 11-04-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,614
Thanks: 31
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 2
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Have spoken to several sail makers about this. Still went with red for the parasailor figuring I'll rip it before it wears out. (grin). Seems consensus is any color (including tanbark) added to sail decreases life expectancy. Stuff they put as UV block on roller furling sails is not part of the sail it self. On my sails even it is white to maximize life. May want to ask folks out by you see if you get different answers- I'm always curious but makes sense coloring the sail changes its chemistry so effects it's life.
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #169  
Old 11-04-2013
casey1999's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: HI
Posts: 2,780
Thanks: 3
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 4
casey1999 is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
If you read my post I said that the owner of the Marine Flower 2 was inexperienced, AT LEAST WITH THAT BOAT. The rescue was in 1994, the same year the Sundeer 60 and 64 were first available. Previously all Sundeer and Deerfoot boats were custom designed and built, mostly in aluminum. As far as Marine Flower being "caught" by a hurricane that moved erratically, there are certain ocean passages that are best not attempted during hurricane season - in any boat.

The Dashews are not your average sailors. Don't paint a picture of them moving to power because of their frailty. .
So your saying even if you are an experienced sailor you should not sail a new boat, because you would not have the experience to sail that model. Sailing skills are in no way transferrable amonge mono hulls?

Many people sail south (from east coast US) in November, as long as the weather predictions look positve for the trip. Remember, Marine Flower happened 20 years ago, weather predictions and ship board electrionics were no where near what most skippers have today.

Contrary to what you post, I am not painting a picture of the Dashews being frail. Quite the contrary. I am amazed at the Dashews, their skill, their knowledge, and their talents to design a spectacular blue water boat. If I were going to purchase a boat in the 60+ foot range, it would probably be a Sun Deer (in fact asked my wife if we could sell our house to by the Sun Deer now for sail on Kauai- she said no...) I was not familar with the Dashews or the Sun Deer until this post, and thank for providing the information. I am also in the process of purchasing the Dashews publications- these are the best I have ever seen. I am awe struck that the Dashews- sailing ability, nautical design, and able to put all of this is writing. Truly amazing sailors, and in my mind, probably the best in the world.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #170  
Old 11-04-2013
casey1999's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: HI
Posts: 2,780
Thanks: 3
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 4
casey1999 is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailing, safety, & size

A previous poster asked about experience. For me 20,000 blue water miles including North and South Pacific, Tasman Sea, North Atlantic, Carribean. 10,000 coastal sailing miles mostly East Coast US.

For me, I wanted to buy a safe boat. I figured criteria should be boat should be able to be single handed, even if you normally sail with at least one crew. Next criteria is the boat make and model should have a history of sailing non-stop around the world via the 5 great capes. I figure if it can do that, it should be a safe boat. I ended up with an S&S 34. Again, this is my criteria, others for sure have other criterias.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sailing - America's Cup sailing suspended for safety review NewsReader News Feeds 1 05-19-2013 08:22 PM
can sailing guarantee my safety? package81 General Discussion (sailing related) 72 01-10-2012 03:00 AM
Questions for potential first time charter (Safety and Boat Size) Kmkennedy14 Chartering 5 09-30-2011 04:58 PM
Sailing Safety MikeGC General Discussion (sailing related) 20 07-24-2008 06:05 PM
Kids/Sailing/Safety NauticalFishwife General Discussion (sailing related) 21 12-14-2007 11:28 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:12 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.