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  #181  
Old 11-04-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Is there a record of a boat type that has made the most passages or holds some kind of records. Are records even keep ?
Good day Lou
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  #182  
Old 11-04-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Lots of pages here, so I am not sure if its been mentioned.

From what I understand, when you are thinking of size in relation to safety, it's often better to consider DISPLACEMENT rather than length. Many boats that are longer are actually smaller in terms of displacement.
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  #183  
Old 11-04-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
Is there a record of a boat type that has made the most passages or holds some kind of records. Are records even keep ?
Good day Lou
Well, that is hard to know I mean what kind of boat made more passages and that dos not mean it is the better boat for the job.

Regarding records I know one that will interest you: The smaller boat to have circumnavigated non stop: A slightly modified mini class racer, a very light boat with 21ft. A very fast boat for its size.
Typically a mini class racer weights about 650kg, however this one was reinforced and was therefore heavier some hundreds of kgs. It had also to carry all the food and provisions needed for the voyage and that would amount also to more some hundreds of kgs.

It is also the smallest boat to have circumnavigated by the three capes. The boat did not have an engine, but then, it sailed very well.




Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-04-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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  #184  
Old 11-04-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

this may have been posted before, not sure haven't read all previous posts.
As far as size and displacement goes, this guy seems to defy both. I like his simple approach to sailing.

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see more at Introduction to the junk-rigged Corribee Mingming or look up junkming on Youtube
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  #185  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Well, that is hard to know I mean what kind of boat made more passages and that dos not mean it is the better boat for the job.

Regarding records I know one that will interest you: The smaller boat to have circumnavigated non stop: A slightly modified mini class racer, a very light boat with 22ft. A very fast boat for its size.

It is also the smallest boat to have circumnavigated. The boat did not have an engine, but then, it sailed very well.

Regards

Paulo
An S&S 34 did an double (2 times around) non stop circumnavigation via 5 great capes and is the only boat I know of that has done that. A triple by the same man was done on a 40 footer (choose larger boat in order to carry the supplies required, ie food and water, for the trip).

These records stand today, even in the relm of Open 60 and other high tech boats.
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  #186  
Old 11-04-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Help me out. What are the "Five Great Capes"? I count 1) Horn, 2) Hope.... Is three and four Southwest and Southeast Capes? Where is the fifth one?

Getting back to the original thesis, the only parameter brought up was one of length. And as the good little engineers we are, we did a constant scaling for the other dimensional data... and we held constant build quality and design. I don't understand why it is hard to draw a simple conclusion from only one variable in our design model.

I do risk analysis and first thought, "heck, with the modeling tools I have, I ought to be able work up a mathematical model on sailboat safety". Wrong. Too many variables and too many subjective assumptions. I am modifying my assumption that safety is a continuum. It is more like a multidimensional shape living within a Monte Carlo analysis. One of you other engineers can play with this one.

I love the associations and allegories. Soyuz v. the Shuttle? Love it. Ignoring the fact that the two solve entirely different design problems (One use vs. reusable, 60 day “return to space” window; aerodynamic v. ballistic etc. ) That is like trying to compare a rescue pod v. and aircraft carrier. Another analogy to use could be “what is safer, a Cessna 150 or a Boeing 777"

But please continue, I’m loving this food fight.
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  #187  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
An S&S 34 did an double (2 times around) non stop circumnavigation via 5 great capes and is the only boat I know of that has done that. A triple by the same man was done on a 40 footer (choose larger boat in order to carry the supplies required, ie food and water, for the trip).

These records stand today, even in the relm of Open 60 and other high tech boats.
Regarding Joe Sanders accomplishment with the small and old S&S 34 Bob Williams, the Chairman of Antarctica Cup Management and the Antarctica Cup Ocean Race, says:

"What Jon achieved during his double circumnavigation in 1981/82 was truly remarkable, given the technology available at the time and size of his yacht.

During that double circumnavigation with the S&S 34 he suffered a 180-degree knockdown and has very lucky in not breaking the mast, a thing that occur most of the times when a sailboat is rolled.

The three times non stop circumnavigation was made on a 47ft boat (not a 40ft boat) a bigger more modern, safer and faster fin keel boat that he could perfectly manage alone during three years. Here it is his 47fter:







PS: After all Sanders broke the mast of the S&S 34 when he was rolled. He managed to jury rig the boat with a mast with half the height and complete that way is second circumnavigation.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-04-2013 at 10:23 PM.
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  #188  
Old 11-05-2013
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
So your saying even if you are an experienced sailor you should not sail a new boat, because you would not have the experience to sail that model. Sailing skills are in no way transferrable amonge mono hulls?

Many people sail south (from east coast US) in November, as long as the weather predictions look positve for the trip. Remember, Marine Flower happened 20 years ago, weather predictions and ship board electrionics were no where near what most skippers have today.

Contrary to what you post, I am not painting a picture of the Dashews being frail. Quite the contrary. I am amazed at the Dashews, their skill, their knowledge, and their talents to design a spectacular blue water boat. If I were going to purchase a boat in the 60+ foot range, it would probably be a Sun Deer (in fact asked my wife if we could sell our house to by the Sun Deer now for sail on Kauai- she said no...) I was not familar with the Dashews or the Sun Deer until this post, and thank for providing the information. I am also in the process of purchasing the Dashews publications- these are the best I have ever seen. I am awe struck that the Dashews- sailing ability, nautical design, and able to put all of this is writing. Truly amazing sailors, and in my mind, probably the best in the world.
The Marine Flower 2 had a crew of 4, if you include a wife with a newborn baby and a 13 year old girl in addition to the skipper. Effectively the skipper was singlehanding the boat once it hit bad weather. Yes, I think that is a mistake in the Atlantic at that time of the year. Interestingly he was sailing under main alone - storm jib and mizzen would have been a more logical choice - hove to possibly.

Steve Dashew's books are the best I have read relating to sailing from design to rig to equipment and its installation. They have no equal as far as books by designers as far as I know. I do not know of any designer that has several hundred thousand blue water miles to their credit. The best is the Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia, 2nd edition. I have both editions, as well as his other books. A major part of the book relates to building a reliable boat that doesn't need the kinds of electrical/mechanical aids that are common today on large (and small) boats. The Sundeer 60 is light for its length, lean (13'4" beam) with a long waterline (59' - Disp/length 82) and simpler than many 35' boats today. If the electric winch did fail manual would work well with a rig that is simple and easy to handle. The only other "complicated" sailing equipment are the jib furlers, well proven by 1994. Its sail area is comparable in size to many 40 to 45 foot boats. Yes the anchors are larger - main anchor over 100 lbs on many. Most boats over 30' have an electric windlass and they are very reliable, if in doubt install 2 like a friend has on his Maple Leaf 50. They were designed to not need bow thrusters, now common on much smaller boats - their spade rudders are oversized for easy maneuverability in marinas at the expense of a slight loss of speed in light air, with rudderposts that are also oversized. Yes they have a lot of electronics and a reliable autopilot - Steve preferred the W-H autopilots which are one of if not the most reliable, still uses them on his powerboats. Some also have wind vanes. With more sail area the winches and deck gear is more capable as well. They could be sailed if necessary with manual winches and a hand held gps if all electrical power was lost, an unlikely event with well designed and built systems that are easy to service because they are not crammed into a small space where service is difficult.

Paulo has posted about many modern boats that rely heavily on items like in mast or boom furling and electric captive winches for the mainsheet and other aids that are more complicated than you will find on a Sundeer. They are really quite simple boats for their size with reliability first and foremost.

If I was going to buy a Sundeer now it would be Ocean Jasper, located in Maryland - I prefer its slab reefing to the in-boom furling on the one in Kauai.

One chooses the boat they are comfortable with that is within their budget. Whether it is a NorSea 27 or a Hallberg Rassy 64 or a Sundeer 60 it is their choice and their choice alone. Personally I would take a simple large boat (Sundeer) over a complicated smaller boat anytime. I think my ideal would be an aluminum Sundeer type boat in the 50' to 60' range.

As far as losing an anchor - it is very good seamanship to buoy an anchor for later retrieval.
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  #189  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Help me out. What are the "Five Great Capes"? I count 1) Horn, 2) Hope.... Is three and four Southwest and Southeast Capes? Where is the fifth one?

.... Another analogy to use could be “what is safer, a Cessna 150 or a Boeing 777"
Any airplane pilot will tell you the same : the 777 is safer by a long margin. The 777 can fly with no problem in weather conditions that would be deadly and impossible to a Cessna 150. But you are right, the analogy is similar to sailboats in what regards size.

Regarding the Capes I have no idea of what are the 5. What normally is refereed in a circumnavigations are the big three: The Cape of Good Hope , Cape Leeuwin, and Cape Horn.


Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-05-2013 at 10:21 AM.
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  #190  
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Re: Sailing, safety, & size

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
....
Paulo has posted about many modern boats that rely heavily on items like in mast or boom furling and electric captive winches for the mainsheet and other aids that are more complicated than you will find on a Sundeer. They are really quite simple boats for their size with reliability first and foremost.
....
Some yes, others not. It is meaningful that from the boats that I have posted the boats designed to voyage in more remote places and that therefore require a larger autonomy and reliability don't have boom furling and even if they have some electric winches (that today are highly reliable) those winches can be used manually.

That is the case with the Allures, Boreal or OVNI lines. It is not by accident that they are all also Aluminium boats:



Regards

Paulo
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